dankodes | Shi Jing, The Book of Odes: Lessons from the States, Odes Of Tang

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Shi Jing, The Book of Odes: Lessons from the States, Odes Of Tang

* I found the best option for the weekly reminder emails, via Gmail. The external service options are more involved than our purposes require. Does anyone know anything about how to arrange an Apps Script? Basically all it has to do is tell ten people, on Saturdays, to come and get their juice/poems.

Until someone knows what to do there, I'll send out manual messages weekly. If you'd like to receive these and are not getting them, please let me know.

* If you haven't read it yet, chapter one, on tetrasyllabic shi poetry, in How to Read Chinese Poetry is hugely useful for the Book of Odes, imo.

* IF YOU HAVE FRIENDS WHO MIGHT LIKE TO JOIN or have other ideas, please let me know on this post.

* Every week I search the poems' English results to see if I can find any scholarship or neat bits and pop the results in Resources. Here is this week's collection.

* In case you missed it and are interested, some people on the com did a Scum Villain read-along here. Anyone with thoughts is welcome to chime in.

* PROGRESS REPORT: With this, we're through the first ten books of the Shi Jing. There will be four more weeks in Lessons from the States, because I'm combining the very short books Gui and Cao. Then we have about seven weeks in Minor Odes of the Kingdom, because the short Baihua will go in with the book before it. Then come three weeks in Greater Odes, then four in Odes of the Temple and the Altar. Then we're entirely done with Shi Jing, and can do Tang or Song or something.

**NEXT BATCH FEB 22.**

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My mum: don’t use the good china.
Me: when can we use it then?
My mum: ——-

Ritual? Like the midsummer English rituals to find out who you are going to marry?

LOL

Yeah, some scholars apparently think a LOT of these are basically the sung component of, or ritual instructions for, 3,000 year old harvest and fertility rituals.

The wild geese’s migratory arrival are a sign that its time to plant but the subjects are prevented from doing so because they have to attend to the king.

Ah the wild geese have arrived - get planting.

I read that as if people give you wrong information how will you find the true course to what you desire.

The plants are all culinary/ medicinal. Maybe a symbol of domestic happiness?

If “ men tell you stories” . Maybe don’t trust a man who tells you he loves you as he may be doing it to get in your pants ( he’s lying because he tells you the wrong location for these culinary foods - proof he has no intention to marry you ) and if you give in to him, you will never get married ( find your proper course)

A Chinese ‘Do not trust him, gentle maiden.’ Sergeant Troy from Far from the Madding crowd?

And maybe a warning to men too - if you play around too much you’ll not find the domestic bliss you should be seeking and really desire because you’re looking in the wrong places.

Edited 2021-02-19 10:55 (UTC)

Is it all the same man?

May be advice to anyone getting a significant position from someone untrustworthy ( 7 robes, 6 robes...) who will as easily remove the honour as grant it? Or expect you to besmirch the honour and abuse the position. Look behind the promotion guys.

Quite a modern problem.

If she can’t supply him with drink and food he ain’t married to her. Beware the ramble maiden! Yep could be a lot of fun but it leaves you in an un-marriageable position.

So much the mantra of my teenage years! How things have changed.

Maybe also a warning to marry within your station in life - also a mantra of my teenage years.

Edited 2021-02-19 10:59 (UTC)

Also the “ would you” suggests that the women know better than than to pick the herbs in those places so why do they readily believe men’s stories?

My comments may be stating the bleeding’ obvious so if they’re not what you’re looking for, please let me know.

These poems read like those Victorian marriage manuals to young women seeking a husband.

Edited 2021-02-19 11:40 (UTC)

For mdzs nonsense, 莫 (in the second line) is Mo Xuanyu's Mo. In the context of this poem, Baike says it's the archaic word for sunset.

The importance of the cricket is that it's an indication of seasons changing

Yeah, mocking a noble ruler.

Baike says the driving the carriage and horses is for entertainment/leisure, so all three stanzas are like, the miser not having fun.

Hm, okay, so there's already some talk of separation in the final lines of each section ("You will drop off in death", thereby become separated from what you are failing to appreciate and use, "and another person will...").

And going off of this: "on the mountains there is X, for example, was usually employed in songs about separation. [...] Parallelism, especially in stock phrases such as "on the mountains there is X, / in the lowlands there is Y," is common

Then the first two lines, contrasting the mountains and the low, wet grounds, are also working to emphasize the upcoming separation?

A very carpe diem/"you can't take it with you" poem.

既見君子、
When we have seen the princely lord,

Aha, so is this the 'junzi' I've now heard so much about? (I'm only 85% sure - I have indirect knowledge of some hanzi via Korean, and I think this would be read as 군 'gun'+ 자 'ja' which seems to track onto jun+zi?)

Confusingly, I think there are three poems in the Shijing with this title lol

Baike says there are several historical figures this was attached to, OR it's a poem about a woman who misses her husband / going on a date. But I think the calm water / conspiracy of the soldiers coming is more compelling.

"This evening is what evening" this is a bit cumbersome?

Agreed. I don't know the rationale for rendering it like that, but IMHO 'What evening is this, / that ...?' would sound more suitable.

These peppers are, of course, Sichuan peppercorns.

Baike says it's not conclusive if this is about [several historical figures brought up], or praising men (for fertility), or praising women (for fertility), or just about women picking peppers. Though it seems likely that the peppers are a metaphor for people and therefore the numerous fruit = descendants. This poem is a good example of the 'bixing' technique.

Edited 2021-02-22 01:11 (UTC)

The three stars are Orion's belt! I knew that one without having to look it up, ahaha.

Baike: the firewood is often referenced in the Shijing when talking about marriage. Firewood is a homonym for heart, so 'binding the firewood' is like the couple having the same feelings. The grass is just glossed as hay for livestock fodder. The thorns are Vitex (chasteberry).

So the stars coming up show the time of the day when the marriage is happening, as Orion rises in the night sky from dusk to midnight.

Aww, "今夕何夕" "This evening is what evening" is used by poets to express sudden joy, esp love between couples.

Again, three Shijing poems with the same title!

Baike: lamb's fur = clothing worn by high ranking officials. This poem satirizes the clothes and attitudes of the proud official, who are arrogant, hypocritical, and superficial, and who abandon old friends. (The old friend is the one writes this poem mocking the official)

Alt. could be a woman reproaching her lover.

Baike: the bird is a Chinese bustard, a big wild goose which lives in aquatic areas and does not roost. This is important, bc the analogy is that it's not supposed to live on these trees -- just like the farmers aren't supposed to live outside their home, unable to farm and feed their families. The three trees are chosen just to rhyme and have no deep meaning.

Baike: There's another poem with the same first sentence in the Shijing, but the ideological content and artistic style are completely different.

There's some thought that the punctuation should be, instead of 6 char sentences, four chars, a ?, and then the last two chars, as an answer. So it's kind of question-and-answer to oneself.

Seven/six are just imaginary numbers (not for a real meaning), and the other char that changes between the stanza is so it still rhymes.

There are some ties to potential historical figures, but also plenty of alternate explanations that aren't about royalty

REALLY interesting that the Shijing poems often come in two stanzas that are very similar?

Baike: several possible explanations, but the one it elaborates on most is where it's a lonely person looking forward to friends visiting and drinking and talking together.

Baike: this poem is persuading people not to listen to slander.

Each stanza is structured as: first two sentences are bixing, middle four implore you to not listen to slander, last two tell you if you don't listen to slander, it won't succeed.

The three plants are necessities of life in this era. (Baike does not elaborate more) It's odd to me that the first two plants are described as bitter? The first is described as extremely bitter medicinal herbs, or potentially lotus or licorice. The second is bitter vegetable. The last one is a turnip.

Oh yeah, good thought re the stock mountains phrase!

What what's the bixing technique, is it different from just having a xing?

Oh I guess it's same constellations, I didn't really think about that one!

So marriage ceremonies at this point are an evening thing--and that's neat, re the firewood, and also bc I wasn't really sure that 'heart' would symbolise what it might in a Western context. (You get so, so much liver with the English erly moderns. SO much liver.)

Does the phrase come from something, or mean something? Like, would you put it another way?

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Shi Jing, The Book of Odes: Lessons from the States, Odes Of Tang

Re: 115. 山有樞 - Shan You Shu

Re: 118. 綢繆 - Chou Mou

Re: 115. 山有樞 - Shan You Shu

Re: 118. 綢繆 - Chou Mou

Re: 121. 鴇羽 - Bao Yu

Re: 125. 采苓 - Cai Ling

Re: 122. 無衣 - Wu Yi

Re: 123. 有杕之杜 - You Di Zhi Du

Re: 125. 采苓 - Cai Ling

Re: 114. 蟋蟀 - Xi Shuai

Re: 115. 山有樞 - Shan You Shu

Re: 115. 山有樞 - Shan You Shu

Re: 116. 揚之水 - Yang Zhi Shui

Re: 116. 揚之水 - Yang Zhi Shui

Re: 118. 綢繆 - Chou Mou

Re: 117. 椒聊 - Jiao Liao

Re: 118. 綢繆 - Chou Mou

Re: 120. 羔裘 - Gao Qiu

Re: 121. 鴇羽 - Bao Yu

Re: 122. 無衣 - Wu Yi

Re: 123. 有杕之杜 - You Di Zhi Du

Re: 125. 采苓 - Cai Ling

Re: 115. 山有樞 - Shan You Shu

Re: 117. 椒聊 - Jiao Liao

Re: 118. 綢繆 - Chou Mou