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x_los ([personal profile] x_los) wrote in [community profile] dankodes2021-11-15 09:31 am

Nineteen Ways of Looking at Wang Wei, Week 1 of 2

This week and next, we're looking at Eliot Weinberger's "Nineteen Ways of Looking at Wang Wei". This short book discusses many ways to translate a single, brief Tang dynasty poem and the choices involved therein. We'll look at the first nine poems (or versions thereof) this week, and the remainder the following. 

I'll reproduce the translations under discussion here, but c/ping from the pdf is not very reliable and frequently introduces errors. I'm including the text here primarily as a reference point for our discussions: I advise you to look at the book file itself for your reading.
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[personal profile] forestofglory 2021-11-15 04:52 pm (UTC)(link)
I'm waiting for a physical copy of the book to show up in the mail. (I read much better on paper than on screens)

In the meantime I thought I would try translating it myself to see how much I can understand on my own. I don't know what I'm doing, I just have a small amount of knowledge of classical grammar, and a classical Chinese dictionary.

Anyways here's my attempt:

On the empty mountain I don't see any people
Merely hear the echo of people talking
Sunlight goes back and arrives deep in the forest
it returns to the shining green moss above
forestofglory: E. H. Shepard drawing of Christopher Robin reading a book to Pooh (Default)

Re: 2. Transliteration

[personal profile] forestofglory 2021-11-18 01:23 am (UTC)(link)
I also want to find out more about these Romanians.

Also I currently prefer to use Mandarin over modern Chinese, to avoid the implication that there's only one Chinese language. However "Mandarin" has it's own problems - I did read that article about it's origins. This seems supprisingly fraught
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Re: 3. Character-by-character translation

[personal profile] forestofglory 2021-11-18 01:56 am (UTC)(link)
This mostly lines up with my classical dictionary except that the dictionary offers "sunlight" for the second character in the third line as well as bright. And "merely" for the first character on the second line.
Edited 2021-11-18 01:58 (UTC)
forestofglory: E. H. Shepard drawing of Christopher Robin reading a book to Pooh (Default)

Re: 4. The Form of the Deer

[personal profile] forestofglory 2021-11-18 03:15 am (UTC)(link)
This DNA metaphor doesn't really make sense if you actually understand what DNA does better than your average Star Trek writer.

forestofglory: E. H. Shepard drawing of Christopher Robin reading a book to Pooh (Default)

Re: 5. Deer-Park Hermitage

[personal profile] forestofglory 2021-11-18 03:19 am (UTC)(link)
Why is Bynner the only translator discussed in the text when Kiang Kang-Hu is also listed as a translator?
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Re: 7. La Foret

[personal profile] forestofglory 2021-11-18 03:24 am (UTC)(link)
Yes, the double translation seems like an issue that should be discussed a bit
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Re: 8. Deer Forest Hermitage

[personal profile] forestofglory 2021-11-18 03:28 am (UTC)(link)
I think the goals of translation are more numerous and complex than Weinberger allows here.
forestofglory: E. H. Shepard drawing of Christopher Robin reading a book to Pooh (Default)

Re: 9. The Deer Enclosure

[personal profile] forestofglory 2021-11-18 03:37 am (UTC)(link)
So Weinberger is contempous of translators adding a first person narrator, but since pronouns are so often implied in Chinese I think he's being rather hard on the translators.
superborb: (Default)

Re: Introduction

[personal profile] superborb 2021-11-21 08:27 pm (UTC)(link)
Perhaps especially relevant since references and allusions to poetry form a greater part of modern Chinese than English?
superborb: (Default)

Re: 2. Transliteration

[personal profile] superborb 2021-11-21 08:31 pm (UTC)(link)
"But translators tend to rush in where wise men never tread, and often may be seen attempting to nurture Chinese rhyme patterns in the hostile environment of a Western language"

lmao
superborb: (Default)

Re: 4. The Form of the Deer

[personal profile] superborb 2021-11-21 08:54 pm (UTC)(link)
This is a use of the word Platonic that I've never encountered before.

Not going to touch this extremely weird defense of Pound.

The point about translations being relatives, not clones simply reminds me of that makeup advice about eyebrows. (Eyebrows are sisters not twins!)
superborb: (Default)

Re: 5. Deer-Park Hermitage

[personal profile] superborb 2021-11-21 08:58 pm (UTC)(link)
Weinberger seems to not approve, but in a way where I'm like, why are you cloaking your words in more sketchy descriptions?
superborb: (Default)

Re: 6. The Deer Park

[personal profile] superborb 2021-11-21 09:02 pm (UTC)(link)
Weinberger has strong opinions on editorializing, but I'm not sure I'm totally persuaded to his side yet.
superborb: (Default)

Re: 7. La Foret

[personal profile] superborb 2021-11-21 09:06 pm (UTC)(link)
This is a recent enough book that we can't assume the audience just knows French!!
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Re: 8. Deer Forest Hermitage

[personal profile] superborb 2021-11-21 09:11 pm (UTC)(link)
Beginning to wonder if Weinberger simply wants translationese! Though tbf, this does stray pretty far from the original.

Anyway, I disagree that lonely carries such a different meaning; after all, wrt to a place, it takes on the meaning of 'unfrequented' which surely is what is being implied here?

superborb: (Default)

Re: 9. The Deer Enclosure

[personal profile] superborb 2021-11-21 09:16 pm (UTC)(link)
More line breaks are more poetic don't you know