Shi Jing, The Book of Odes: Lessons from the States, Odes Of Yong

[x_los]

First off, THANK YOU for your email and poem responses this week! Please do check out each others' thoughts in the comments. There's some fun stuff to build off of, and it's less intimidating to offer up some thoughts if we're having a conversation. I'm looking forward to getting into these this evening. 

Some notes:

* Two members asked for weekly email reminders on Saturday, so I've figured out how to set that up. If you did NOT get an email yesterday, I haven't got you on the list. If you'd like to be on the list, please let me know!

If you would like *not* to be on the list, let's see whether the first Automated Email on Saturday has an unsubscribe option? If it doesn't, please just respond 'unsubscribe' or something and I'll take you off the reminder.

* One member asked that we do a classic Tang collection right after this one, for something a bit more modern and approachable (she phrased it as the difference between Chaucer and Shakespeare). Unless there are objections, I'm very happy to jump forward in time--we can always circle back to danker parts later if/when we feel like it, and Tang is regarded as some very good shit.

* If you have further ideas, please let me know on this post. 

* IF YOU HAVE FRIENDS WHO MIGHT LIKE TO JOIN, please also let me know on this post. I think we're getting to a more stable point, where a handful of additional commenters would be welcome?

* If you haven't read it yet, chapter one, on tetrasyllabic shi poetry, in How to Read Chinese Poetry is hugely useful for the Book of Odes, imo.



Thank you!

Comments

49. 鶉之奔奔 - Chun Zhi Ben Ben

[x_los]

鶉之奔奔、鵲之彊彊。
人之無良、我以為兄。

Boldly faithful in their pairings are quails;
Vigorously so are magpies.
This man is all vicious,
And I consider him my brother!

鵲之彊彊、鶉之奔奔。
人之無良、我以為君。

Vigorously faithful in their pairings are magpies;
Boldly so are quails.
This woman is all vicious,
And I regard her as marchioness.

Re: 49. 鶉之奔奔 - Chun Zhi Ben Ben

[x_los]

Why vicious?? Like, this one has some good texture to it, but I have Questions.

Re: 49. 鶉之奔奔 - Chun Zhi Ben Ben

[between4walls]

I'm guessing this is a love triangle? I could be completely wrong, but if it's written by the Marquis, then the Marchioness might have been cheating with his (either real or metaphorical) brother. Given the references to marital fidelity on the part of the bird metaphor.

Re: 49. 鶉之奔奔 - Chun Zhi Ben Ben

[kitsunec4]

It's interesting because I think I would have called that "lacking kindness," but vicious does fit better in English in a poetic sense.

The second line of each couplet has a repeating structure as emphasis that is a nuance missed in the English.

I might choose to go:
"a man without kindness, I regarded him as brother."
"a woman without kindness, I regarded her noble."

But then, I'm uncertain I understand the entire poem, and am only suggesting what reads better to me in English with some understanding of the Chinese itself.

In order to imitate the repetition?

Re: 49. 鶉之奔奔 - Chun Zhi Ben Ben

[superborb]

I am very confused why Legge translates the last bit to a woman -- the 君 usually indicates a man, no? And 人 is obviously gender neutral.

Baidu says this used to be read as a poem to criticize the monarch, while modern scholars think it's a poem about women blaming men. (At least one of the many people mentioned is the same lady as in 46/47, but also apparently two women had the same name so it might not be the same one -- Baidu inconveniently doesn't hyperlink the name so I can't check, and my history isn't strong enough to parse out all the names)

Re: 49. 鶉之奔奔 - Chun Zhi Ben Ben

[kitsunec4]

That too! Or is there something else where that character used to be utilized in a more gender neutral fashion? I'm too illiterate for this poetry club.

I think that, structurally, this is my favorite so far. The repetitive elements hit just right.