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Entry tags:
Shi Jing, The Book of Odes: Lessons from the States, Odes Of Yong
First off, THANK YOU for your email and poem responses this week! Please do check out each others' thoughts in the comments. There's some fun stuff to build off of, and it's less intimidating to offer up some thoughts if we're having a conversation. I'm looking forward to getting into these this evening.
Some notes:
* Two members asked for weekly email reminders on Saturday, so I've figured out how to set that up. If you did NOT get an email yesterday, I haven't got you on the list. If you'd like to be on the list, please let me know!
If you would like *not* to be on the list, let's see whether the first Automated Email on Saturday has an unsubscribe option? If it doesn't, please just respond 'unsubscribe' or something and I'll take you off the reminder.
* One member asked that we do a classic Tang collection right after this one, for something a bit more modern and approachable (she phrased it as the difference between Chaucer and Shakespeare). Unless there are objections, I'm very happy to jump forward in time--we can always circle back to danker parts later if/when we feel like it, and Tang is regarded as some very good shit.
* If you have further ideas, please let me know on this post.
* IF YOU HAVE FRIENDS WHO MIGHT LIKE TO JOIN, please also let me know on this post. I think we're getting to a more stable point, where a handful of additional commenters would be welcome?
* If you haven't read it yet, chapter one, on tetrasyllabic shi poetry, in How to Read Chinese Poetry is hugely useful for the Book of Odes, imo.
Thank you!
Some notes:
* Two members asked for weekly email reminders on Saturday, so I've figured out how to set that up. If you did NOT get an email yesterday, I haven't got you on the list. If you'd like to be on the list, please let me know!
If you would like *not* to be on the list, let's see whether the first Automated Email on Saturday has an unsubscribe option? If it doesn't, please just respond 'unsubscribe' or something and I'll take you off the reminder.
* One member asked that we do a classic Tang collection right after this one, for something a bit more modern and approachable (she phrased it as the difference between Chaucer and Shakespeare). Unless there are objections, I'm very happy to jump forward in time--we can always circle back to danker parts later if/when we feel like it, and Tang is regarded as some very good shit.
* If you have further ideas, please let me know on this post.
* IF YOU HAVE FRIENDS WHO MIGHT LIKE TO JOIN, please also let me know on this post. I think we're getting to a more stable point, where a handful of additional commenters would be welcome?
* If you haven't read it yet, chapter one, on tetrasyllabic shi poetry, in How to Read Chinese Poetry is hugely useful for the Book of Odes, imo.
Thank you!
45. 柏舟 - Bo Zhou
髧彼兩髦、實維我儀。
之死矢靡它。
母也天只、不諒人只。
It floats about, that boat of cypress wood,
There in the middle of the He.
With his two tufts of hair falling over his forehead,
He was my mate;
And I swear that till death I will have no other.
O mother, O Heaven,
Why will you not understand me?
汎彼柏舟、在彼河側。
髧彼兩髦、實維我特。
之死矢靡慝。
母也天只、不諒人只。
It floats about, that boat of cypress wood,
There by the side of the He.
With his two tufts of hair falling over his forehead,
He was my only one;
And I swear that till death I will not do the evil thing.
O mother, O Heaven,
Why will you not understand me?
Re: 45. 柏舟 - Bo Zhou
I think based off vague googling this is about the daughter refusing to remarry after her partner's death.
It's short, but my verdict is: this one slaps.
Re: 45. 柏舟 - Bo Zhou
46. 牆有茨 - Qiang You Ci
牆有茨、不可埽也。
中冓之言、不可道也。
所可道也、言之醜也。
The tribulus grows on the wall,
And cannot be brushed away.
The story of the inner chamber,
Cannot be told.
What would have to be told,
Would be the vilest of recitals.
牆有茨、不可襄也。
中冓之言、不可詳也。
所可詳也、言之長也。
The tribulus grow on the wall,
And cannot be removed.
The story of the inner chamber,
Cannot be particularly related.
What might be particularly related
Would be a long story.
牆有茨、不可束也。
中冓之言、不可讀也。
所可讀也、言之辱也。
The tribulus grow on the wall,
And cannot be bound together, [and taken away].
The story of the inner chamber
Cannot be recited,
What might be recited,
Would be the most disgraceful of things.
Re: 46. 牆有茨 - Qiang You Ci
So the 'inner chamber' is often a euphemism for the cloistered world of women, assumed to be a safe domestic space. Is this poem about the public unspeakability of the realities of women's lives, or conflicts between women, or men's abuses of women within their nominal care? There's something enduringly potent in it.
Re: 46. 牆有茨 - Qiang You Ci
Re: 46. 牆有茨 - Qiang You Ci
Re: 46. 牆有茨 - Qiang You Ci
47. 君子偕老 - Jun Zi Xie Lao
委委佗佗、如山如河、象服是宜。
子之不淑、云如之何。
The husband's to their old age,
In her headdress, and the cross-pins, with their six jewels;
Easy and elegant in her movements;
[Stately] as a mountain, [majestic]as a river,
Well beseeming her pictured robes:
[But] with your want of virtue, O lady,
What have you to do with these things?
玼兮玼兮、其之翟也。
鬒髮如云、不屑髢也。
玉之瑱也、象之揥也、揚且之皙也。
胡然而天也、胡然而帝也。
How rich and splendid
Is her pheasant-figured robe!
Her black hair in masses like clouds,
No false locks does she descend to.
There are her ear-plugs of jade,
Her comb-pin of ivory,
And her high forehead, so white.
She appears like a visitant from heaven!
She appears like a goddess!
瑳兮瑳兮、其之展也。
蒙彼縐絺、是紲袢也。
子之清揚、揚且之顏也。
展如之人兮、邦之媛也。
How rich and splendid
Is her robe of state!
It is worn over the finest muslin of dolichos,
The more cumbrous and warm garment being removed.
Clear are her eyes; fine is her forehead;
Full are her temples.
Ah! such a woman as this!
The beauty of the country!
Re: 47. 君子偕老 - Jun Zi Xie Lao
" The Queen’s crosspins and hairsticks are all made of jade. Only sacrificial regalia includes crosspins. They hang to the two sides of the tiara above the ears, and below each of them jade plugs dangle from ear tassels. The lines ‘How rich and splendid is her pheasant-figured robe! Her black hair in masses like clouds, no false locks does she descend to. There are her ear-plugs of jade…’ from the Classic of Poetry refer to these ornaments."
"In the current era, the Empress wears a long swallow-tail hem robe that has been given the name of the Great Pheasant robe.” The “Etiquette” section of the Book of Sui records the regalia of the Northern and Southern Dynasties [...] As to how similar, the wife of the great dukes qualify for the Great Pheasant robe down to the Bordered Robe. The Great Pheasant robe is used for paying reverence to the ancestral temple alongside the ruler, the Lesser Pheasant robe is used in sacrifices to the various gods of nature, the Courtyard Pheasant robe is used in sacrifices to all the lesser gods, the Yellow Mulberry robe is used for the Silkworm Ceremony, the Plain White Robe is used for greeting guests and paying court to the ruler, the Bordered Robe is used for greeting the ruler. The wives of the marquesses and counts qualify for the Lesser Pheasant and all robes lower in rank. The Lesser Pheasant is used to accompany the ruler to sacrifices to the ancestral temple and the various gods of nature, with the Courtyard Pheasant and all the other robes used for the same purposes as those of a Duchess."
https://han-clothing.tumblr.com/post/174994495728/swaying-with-every-step-an-analysis-of-the/amp
So the pheasant-figured robe is a very specific thing.
Is the poet calling out the empress/duchess for looking great but in fact lacking virtue, or is he addressing some other female figure for that passage? The placement of the call-out, so quickly reached and then drifted from, seems strange.
Re: 47. 君子偕老 - Jun Zi Xie Lao
48. 桑中 - Sang Zhong
云誰之思、美孟姜矣。
期我乎桑中、要我乎上宮、送我乎淇之上矣。
I am going to gather the dodder,
In the fields of Mei.
But of whom are my thoughts?
Of that beauty, the eldest of the Jiang.
She made an appointment with me in Sangzhong;
She will meet me in Shanggong;
She will accompany me to Qishang.
爰采麥矣、沬之北矣。
云誰之思、美孟弋矣。
期我乎桑中、要我乎上宮、送我乎淇之上矣 。
I am going to gather the wheat,
In the north of Mei.
But of whom are my thoughts?
Of that beauty, the eldest of the Yi.
She made an appointment with me in Sangzhong;
She will meet me in Shanggong;
She will accompany me to Qishang.
爰采葑矣、沬之東矣。
云誰之思、美孟庸矣。
期我乎桑中、要我乎上宮、送我乎淇之上矣。
I am going to gather the mustard plant,,
In the east of Mei.
But of whom are my thoughts?
Of that beauty, the eldest of the Yong.
She made an appointment with me in Sangzhong;
She will meet me in Shanggong;
She will accompany me to Qishang.
Re: 48. 桑中 - Sang Zhong
Dodder: "C. chinensis seeds (simplified Chinese: 菟丝子; traditional Chinese: 菟絲子; pinyin: túsīzî) have long been used for osteoporosis in China and some other Asian countries.[12] C. chinensis is a commonly used traditional Chinese medicine which is believed to strengthen the liver and kidneys.[13] Cuscuta species are also used as medicine in Himalayan regional medical traditions.[14]" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cuscuta#Use_in_Chinese_traditional_medicine
You three-timing, huh boy?
Re: 48. 桑中 - Sang Zhong
Re: 48. 桑中 - Sang Zhong
49. 鶉之奔奔 - Chun Zhi Ben Ben
人之無良、我以為兄。
Boldly faithful in their pairings are quails;
Vigorously so are magpies.
This man is all vicious,
And I consider him my brother!
鵲之彊彊、鶉之奔奔。
人之無良、我以為君。
Vigorously faithful in their pairings are magpies;
Boldly so are quails.
This woman is all vicious,
And I regard her as marchioness.
Re: 49. 鶉之奔奔 - Chun Zhi Ben Ben
Re: 49. 鶉之奔奔 - Chun Zhi Ben Ben
Re: 49. 鶉之奔奔 - Chun Zhi Ben Ben
The second line of each couplet has a repeating structure as emphasis that is a nuance missed in the English.
I might choose to go:
"a man without kindness, I regarded him as brother."
"a woman without kindness, I regarded her noble."
But then, I'm uncertain I understand the entire poem, and am only suggesting what reads better to me in English with some understanding of the Chinese itself.
In order to imitate the repetition?
Re: 49. 鶉之奔奔 - Chun Zhi Ben Ben
Baidu says this used to be read as a poem to criticize the monarch, while modern scholars think it's a poem about women blaming men. (At least one of the many people mentioned is the same lady as in 46/47, but also apparently two women had the same name so it might not be the same one -- Baidu inconveniently doesn't hyperlink the name so I can't check, and my history isn't strong enough to parse out all the names)
Re: 49. 鶉之奔奔 - Chun Zhi Ben Ben
I think that, structurally, this is my favorite so far. The repetitive elements hit just right.
50. 定之方中 - Ding Zhi Fang Zhong
揆之以日、作于楚室。
樹之榛栗、椅桐梓漆、爰伐琴瑟。
When Ding culminated [at night fall],
He began to build the palace at Chu.
Determining its aspects by means of the sun,
He built the mansion at Chu.
He planted about it hazel and chesnut trees,
The yi, the tong, the zi, and the varnish-tree,
Which, when cut down, might afford materials for lutes.
升彼虛矣、以望楚矣。
望楚與堂、景山與京。
降觀于桑、卜云其吉、終然允臧。
He ascended those old walls,
And thence surveyed [the site of ] Chu.
He surveyed Chu and Tang,
With the high hills and lofty elevations about :
He descended and examined the mulberry trees;
He then divined, and got a fortunate response;
And thus the issue has been truly good.
靈雨既零、命彼倌人。
星言夙駕、說于桑田。
匪直也人、秉心塞淵、騋牝三千。
When the good rains had fallen,
He would order his groom,
By starlight, in the morning, to yoke his carriage,
And would then stop among the mulberry trees and fields.
But not only thus did he show what he was; -
Maintaining in his heart a profound devotion to his duties,
His tall horses and mares amounted to three thousand.
Re: 50. 定之方中 - Ding Zhi Fang Zhong
Why is stopping in the fields significant?
There's something inherently funny in just ending this with 'and he had a FUCKTON of horses'.
Re: 50. 定之方中 - Ding Zhi Fang Zhong
This particular one is also in a very dense format wherein I find it so difficult to read in the Chinese I'm pretty much only understanding anything because there is an English translation.
Re: 50. 定之方中 - Ding Zhi Fang Zhong
Re: 50. 定之方中 - Ding Zhi Fang Zhong
Unless I'm missing something, Baidu just says the stopping in the fields is to show that he's personally going to supervise farming bc agricultural production is so important
51. 蝃蝀 - Di Dong
女子有行、遠父母兄弟。
There is a rainbow in the east,
And no one dares to point to it.
When a girl goes away [from her home],
She separates from her parents and brothers.
朝隮于西、崇朝其雨。
女子有行、遠兄弟父母。
In the morning [a rainbow] rises in the west,
And [only] during the morning is there rain.
When a girl goes away [from her home],
She separates from her brothers and parents.
乃如之人也、懷昏姻也。
大無信也、不知命也。
This person
Has her heart only on being married.
Greatly is she untrue to herself,
And does not recognize [the law of] her lot.
Re: 51. 蝃蝀 - Di Dong
Same energy.
Guess she doesn't have sisters? :/ Also it's not like ladies decided they'd BELONG to their new husband's family henceforth, poet.
What's the rainbow symbolism up to?
Re: 51. 蝃蝀 - Di Dong
Re: 51. 蝃蝀 - Di Dong
52. 相鼠 - Xiang Shu
人而無儀、不死何為。
Look at a rat, - it has its skin;
But a man should be without dignity of demeanour.
If a man have no dignity of demeanour,
What should he but die?
相鼠有齒、人而無止。
人而無止、不死何俟。
Look at a rat, - it has its teeth;
But a man shall be without any right deportment.
If a man have not right deportment,
What should he wait for but death?
相鼠有體、人而無禮。
人而無禮、胡不遄死。
Look at a rat, - it has its limbs;
But a man shall be without any rules of propriety.
If a man observe no rules of propriety,
Why does he not quickly die?
Re: 52. 相鼠 - Xiang Shu
WOW the Scoville rating on this. Someone was so pissed? Idk what about but I know they HATE one specific guy, whoever he was.
[lapse into fannish] I didn't wanna be the one to say it, but the vibe on this is v strongly:
Sizhui, 13: Father seems to be doing better, lately. Do you think therapy is helping?
Xichen: It's giving him a creative outlet, at least. Oh, there he is now--Wangji, what are you doing with that pigeon?
Wangji: I am sending Sect Leader Jiang a special poem I have written him.
Xichen: May I see it?
Wangji: No.
Xichen: Will it cause a diplomatic incident? ...is your silence 'yes'? Wangji. Wangji, PUT THE PIGEON DOWN--
Re: 52. 相鼠 - Xiang Shu
53. 干旄 - Gan Mao
素絲紕之、良馬四之。
彼姝者子、何以畀之。
Conspicuously rise the staffs with their ox-tails,
In the distant suburbs of Jun,
Ornamented with the white silk bands;
There are four carriages with their good horses,
That admirable gentleman, -
What will he give them [for his]?
孑孑干旟、在浚之都。
素絲組之、良馬五之。
彼姝者子、何以予之。
Conspiciously rise the staffs with their falcon-banners,
In the nearer suburbs of Jun,
Ornamented with the white silk ribbons;
There are four carriages with their good horses,
That admirable gentleman, -
What will he give them [for his]?
孑孑干旌、在浚之城。
素絲祝之、良馬六之。
彼姝者子、何以告之。
Conspiciously rise the staffs with their feathered streamers,
At the walls of Jun,
Bound with the white silk cords;
There are six carriages with their good horses,
That admirable gentleman, -
What will he give them [for his]?
Re: 53. 干旄 - Gan Mao
My guess is this is some 'competing for the favour of the monarch' shit?
Re: 53. 干旄 - Gan Mao
54. 載馳 - Zai Chi
驅馬悠悠、言至于漕。
大夫跋涉、我心則憂。
I would have galloped my horses and whipt them,
Returning to condole with the marquis of Wei.
I would have urged them all the long way,
Till I arrived at Cao.
A great officer has gone, over the hills and through the rivers;
But my heart is full of sorrow.
既不我嘉、不能旋反。
視爾不臧、我思不遠。
既不我嘉、不能旋濟。
視爾不臧、我思不閟。
You disapproved of my [proposal],
And I cannot return to [Wei];
But I regard you as in the wrong,
And cannot forget my purpose.
You disapproved of my purpose,
But I cannot return across the streams;
But I regard you as in the wrong,
And cannot shut out my thoughts.
陟彼阿丘、言采其蝱。
女子善懷、亦各有行。
許人尤之、眾穉且狂。
I will ascend that mound with the steep side,
And gather the mother-of-pearl lilies.
I might, as a woman, have many thoughts,
But every one of them was practicable.
The people of Xu blame me,
But they are all childish and hasty [in their conclusions].
我行其野、芃芃其麥。
控于大邦、誰因誰極。
大夫君子、無我有尤。
百爾所思、不如我所之。
I would have gone through the country,
Amidst the wheat so luxuriant.
I would have carried the case before the great State.
On whom should I have relied? Who would come [to the help of Wei]?
Ye great officers and gentlemen,
Do not condemn me.
The hundred plans you think of
Are not equal to the course I was going to take.
Re: 54. 載馳 - Zai Chi
"A great officer has gone, over the hills and through the rivers;
But my heart is full of sorrow." gone to condole with Wei? Gone from the world? (Is this referring to Wei? The Yellow River is sometimes a euphemism for death in Chinese tradition, I think?)
Interesting, I think this female PoV is supposed to last for the whole of the poem. Is that speaker an artistic pose, or is this a female poet? Why do the people of Xu blame her? Are we meant to read this as self-justifying, or honest? It feels a bit, to me, like Hamlet's “I loved Ophelia. Forty thousand brothers could not, with all their quantity of love, make up my sum”, which is always kind of suspect.
Re: 54. 載馳 - Zai Chi
Re: 54. 載馳 - Zai Chi
Re: 54. 載馳 - Zai Chi
I skimmed the baidu article for her, and it notes that after she wrote this poem to denounce the Xu country officials, she did return to Wei and helped restore the country.
Re: 54. 載馳 - Zai Chi
Re: 54. 載馳 - Zai Chi
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lady_Xu_Mu