For the record, here's a Discord conversation some of us had about the week's poems:
Vorvayne: Reading through the intro to the poems determinedly annotating everything with the pinyin Hate to say it but wade giles makes sense tho Like it's really systematic and there's no fussing about whether your i is an eeee or an ih sound because they're written differently The places where it makes no sense are places where the pronounciation has literally changed in the intervening century Hm guess she really doesn't like being a captured princess, what a shock x_los: oh WAIT for the coming weeks which stress how much! she struggles with leaving! her husband!!!!! and like evidence of this in text: arguably 1 line in 18 poems and it is ARGUABLE and I'm like ??????? at hoooow easily the commentators are like yeah she loves him I mean ladies do, right? that's a lady thing douqi: What's the positionality of the commentators? Are they like contemporaneous Han people? Or, like, modern-day people x_los: modern (well, 1974?) like these are tang poems about a han subject and then the commentary is 1974 but also I think everyone but the og subject is a dude and she wrote her own poems, and wang anshi wrote a treatment of the theme, but I can't find either douqi: The prevailing Tang view I thought would be 'well OF COURSE she wants to leave him and come back' x_los: this is apparently the most famous one bc of the scroll yeah that's true I think there's not a LOT about him he's more present pictorially than in the lit and even in the pics she's always like--looking AWAY from him up at the moon or whatever the fuck a goose some self-harm she's doing to maybe communicate via a goose douqi: The goose is a motif Zhaojun, another Han diplomatic bride, was said to be so beautiful that the geese fell out of the sky looking at her as she crossed the border https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wang_Zhaojun "Wang Zhaojun Wang Qiang (Wang Ch'iang; 王牆, also 王檣 and 王嬙), commonly known by her courtesy name Wang Zhaojun (Chinese: 王昭君; Wade–Giles: Wang Chao-chun) was known as one of the Four Beauties of ancient China. Born in Baoping Village, Zigui County (in current Hubei Province) in the Western Han dynasty (206 BC–8 AD), she was sent by Emperor Yuan to marry Chanyu..."
x_los: fffff what a tribute like 'that goose DIED... because I was so hot' douqi: This is the most metal one Xi Shi had sinking fish Which is a bit ehhhh The Liao/Jin take on Wenji's return is interesting too Isn't it fun that basically everyone gets to argue over what her experience was like And use her in their own nation/culture-building projects x_los: like do we just not /have/ her poems on it or have they simply not been translated or have they been somewhere I can't find? douqi: We have hers on it: https://baike.baidu.com/item/%E6%82%B2%E6%84%A4%E8%AF%97/5383786?lemmaId=6785&lemmaTitle=%E8%94%A1%E6%96%87%E5%A7%AC&bk_fr=chain_bottom×tamp=1631455953855 Don't know if translated It seems to have been the only bit of her writing that's been handed down x_los: it'd be nice to have somewhere like, a sourcebook/parallel treatment over time, with context, like that'd be a neat study douqi: There seems to be more in this about her grief at parting from her children She doesn't seem to mention the husband specifically The kids take up quite a bit of verse time The actual 'living here is truly miserable' takes up surprisingly little verse time x_los: huh bc the tang is ROLLLING in that like still sucks shit that I can smell sheep fat so fucking gross, so fucking bored Vorvayne: Oh wow I can't read all of it but like Is it just me or is it a whoooole lot grimmer and more direct than the Tang retelling? douqi: It is very direct Vorvayne: She's not fucking around
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Date: 2021-09-13 03:07 am (UTC)Vorvayne: Reading through the intro to the poems determinedly annotating everything with the pinyin
Hate to say it but wade giles makes sense tho
Like it's really systematic and there's no fussing about whether your i is an eeee or an ih sound because they're written differently
The places where it makes no sense are places where the pronounciation has literally changed in the intervening century
Hm guess she really doesn't like being a captured princess, what a shock
x_los: oh WAIT for the coming weeks which stress how much! she struggles with leaving! her husband!!!!!
and like evidence of this in text:
arguably 1 line
in 18 poems
and it is ARGUABLE
and I'm like ???????
at hoooow easily the commentators are like yeah she loves him
I mean ladies do, right? that's a lady thing
douqi: What's the positionality of the commentators?
Are they like contemporaneous Han people? Or, like, modern-day people
x_los: modern (well, 1974?)
like these are tang poems about a han subject
and then the commentary is 1974
but also I think everyone but the og subject is a dude
and she wrote her own poems, and wang anshi wrote a treatment of the theme, but I can't find either
douqi: The prevailing Tang view I thought would be 'well OF COURSE she wants to leave him and come back'
x_los: this is apparently the most famous one bc of the scroll
yeah that's true I think
there's not a LOT about him
he's more present pictorially
than in the lit
and even in the pics she's always like--looking AWAY from him
up at the moon or whatever the fuck
a goose
some self-harm she's doing to maybe communicate via a goose
douqi: The goose is a motif
Zhaojun, another Han diplomatic bride, was said to be so beautiful that the geese fell out of the sky looking at her as she crossed the border https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wang_Zhaojun
"Wang Zhaojun
Wang Qiang (Wang Ch'iang; 王牆, also 王檣 and 王嬙), commonly known by her courtesy name Wang Zhaojun (Chinese: 王昭君; Wade–Giles: Wang Chao-chun) was known as one of the Four Beauties of ancient China. Born in Baoping Village, Zigui County (in current Hubei Province) in the Western Han dynasty (206 BC–8 AD), she was sent by Emperor Yuan to marry Chanyu..."
x_los: fffff
what a tribute like
'that goose DIED... because I was so hot'
douqi: This is the most metal one
Xi Shi had sinking fish
Which is a bit ehhhh
The Liao/Jin take on Wenji's return is interesting too
Isn't it fun that basically everyone gets to argue over what her experience was like
And use her in their own nation/culture-building projects
x_los: like do we just not /have/ her poems on it or have they simply not been translated or have they been somewhere I can't find?
douqi: We have hers on it: https://baike.baidu.com/item/%E6%82%B2%E6%84%A4%E8%AF%97/5383786?lemmaId=6785&lemmaTitle=%E8%94%A1%E6%96%87%E5%A7%AC&bk_fr=chain_bottom×tamp=1631455953855
Don't know if translated
It seems to have been the only bit of her writing that's been handed down
x_los: it'd be nice to have somewhere like, a sourcebook/parallel treatment over time, with context, like that'd be a neat study
douqi: There seems to be more in this about her grief at parting from her children
She doesn't seem to mention the husband specifically
The kids take up quite a bit of verse time
The actual 'living here is truly miserable' takes up surprisingly little verse time
x_los: huh bc the tang is ROLLLING in that
like still sucks shit that I can smell sheep fat
so fucking gross, so fucking bored
Vorvayne: Oh wow
I can't read all of it but like
Is it just me or is it a whoooole lot grimmer and more direct than the Tang retelling?
douqi: It is very direct
Vorvayne: She's not fucking around