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[personal profile] x_los posting in [community profile] dankodes
This week we start David Hawkes' Little Primer of Du Fu. I'll replicate the poems themselves here, but this book contains considerable exegesis, so I do advise you to grab this copy.

Because this exegesis is relatively substantial, let's start by reading poems 1 through 5, inclusive. There are 35 poems in the collection, so this should take us about seven weeks (unless we scale either up or down, after speaking about it).

I'm gathering additional research materials, but for this first week I'd like us to concentrate on Hawkes' introduction and the first of these poems. 
Date: 2021-10-03 07:18 pm (UTC)

Re: 1.望嶽 Wàng yuè

From: (Anonymous)
I *think* the 'bursting eye-sockets' bit is about widening his eyes to take in the full view inc of the returning birds. Baike agrees with me.
Date: 2021-10-03 09:57 pm (UTC)

Re: 1.望嶽 Wàng yuè

superborb: (Default)
From: [personal profile] superborb
The dictionary says 嶽 is either the surname Yue or highest mt. There are other Yue surname chars though.
Date: 2021-10-03 07:15 pm (UTC)

Re: 1.望嶽 Wàng yuè

douqi: (Default)
From: [personal profile] douqi
The Five Great Peaks: also Very Significant in wuxia. The peak of Huashan features as a meeting place for the martial arts greats in the first two books of Jin Yong's Condor Trilogy. Jin Yong's later novel The Smiling Proud Wanderer heavily features an alliance of five sects each of which are based on one of the Great Peaks. In that novel, one of the most powerful moves of the Taishan Sect is named after this poem: 岱宗如何.

PS Anon comment above is also me.
Edited Date: 2021-10-03 07:21 pm (UTC)
Date: 2021-10-03 10:27 pm (UTC)

Re: 1.望嶽 Wàng yuè

superborb: (Default)
From: [personal profile] superborb
We have nowhere to discuss his intro, but
"c is like ‘ts’ in ‘tsetse fly’"
Is this a word people generally know how to pronounce!

Also, I do not find the mix of various romanticization strategies to be more comprehensible, but okay.

Baike glosses that the 'divide the dawn from the dark' is that the mountain is so high that its north and south have different levels of brightness

Baike also tries to justify the 夫, which is some kind of modal particle, yet reading it just made me more confused about what it's doing there. It doesn't have a meaning, and is needed for ... vivid portrayal? a unique deftness????
Date: 2021-10-04 01:08 pm (UTC)

Re: 1.望嶽 Wàng yuè

superborb: (Default)
From: [personal profile] superborb
It's Meishan Yu, not Yue
Date: 2021-10-03 07:28 pm (UTC)

Re: 2. 兵車行 Bīng-chē xíng

douqi: (Default)
From: [personal profile] douqi
Re: xing - It's a different word altogether - the 'xing' in the Shijing is 兴 (fourth tone) and the 'xing' in the title here is 行 (second tone).
Date: 2021-10-04 12:12 am (UTC)

Re: 2. 兵車行 Bīng-chē xíng

superborb: (Default)
From: [personal profile] superborb
Conscripted men: much better than any of the dictionary suggestions for 役 that I previously tried to use lol

Plural prefix is a better term than 'imaginary number' for this phenomenon, but Cocoa's suggestion of indefinite number is definitely the precise term.

I've decided I'm not a fan of the method of translating each character with minimal grammatical correction. It's confusing to me.

Baike notes:
This is part of the Yuefu movement (which Hawkes calls ballads).
The "fathers, mothers, wives, and children" shows the age range of the conscripts, both the young (with parents sending them off) and the older (with children)
Could be satirizing two different campaigns against the Tubo or against the Nanzhao.
Date: 2021-10-11 05:40 pm (UTC)

Re: 2. 兵車行 Bīng-chē xíng

forestofglory: E. H. Shepard drawing of Christopher Robin reading a book to Pooh (Default)
From: [personal profile] forestofglory
The army was stretched thin as in this poem, but of course the An Lushan Rebellion just happened because that one women was too pretty, nothing to do with tropes or resources or anything like that.
Date: 2021-10-03 07:36 pm (UTC)

Re: 3. 麗人行 Lì-rén xíng

douqi: (Default)
From: [personal profile] douqi
The sisters' 'Duchess' titles, as far as I can make out, are not titles by marriage. They were conferred directly by the emperor.

Yang Kuei-fei (or Yang Guifei in contemporary pinyin) is of course the artist also known as Strangled Girl.

Paternal cousins sharing the same surname is incest. Maternal cousins not sharing the same surname is generally a highly acceptable marital prospect. This is not meant to make sense.
Date: 2021-10-04 12:42 am (UTC)

Re: 3. 麗人行 Lì-rén xíng

superborb: (Default)
From: [personal profile] superborb
REALLY appreciating having the TL here to read before the rest of Hawkes's thoughts.

Because of his confusing insistence on non-pinyin for names, Yang Guifei took me a few moments to associate correctly. This is a Me Problem, but it is still confusing every time. Maybe he should put the names in characters too >:(

The Double Third Festival: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double_Third_Festival

Baike notes:
This is on the eve of the Anshi rebellion, one of whose causes was the use of power by outside relatives (i.e. relatives who are not in the same family, so maternal or relations of the wife).
Baike agrees with Hawkes wrt stanza divisions.
Baike is very admiring of the use of concealed satire, not specifically speaking of the complaint and letting it emerge naturally.
Date: 2021-10-11 05:52 pm (UTC)

Re: 3. 麗人行 Lì-rén xíng

forestofglory: E. H. Shepard drawing of Christopher Robin reading a book to Pooh (Default)
From: [personal profile] forestofglory
We actually know more about Tang fashion now! We have surviving garments and fashion dolls.

Also its confusing that he translates the double third festival as "spring festival" because I generally see spring festival used to mean the two weeks after lunar new year.
Date: 2021-10-04 01:04 am (UTC)

Re: 4. 月夜 Yuè-yè

superborb: (Default)
From: [personal profile] superborb
I think it's just that crabs are in season around then?

I still don't understand why the tears are happy
Date: 2021-10-03 07:40 pm (UTC)

Re: 4. 月夜 Yuè-yè

douqi: (Default)
From: [personal profile] douqi
The 'looking up at the moon thinking of each other while in different places' is very much a Big Motif.
Date: 2021-10-04 01:14 am (UTC)

Re: 4. 月夜 Yuè-yè

superborb: (Default)
From: [personal profile] superborb
Do you know how many poems are called Yueye. Do you know how many Tang dynasty poems are called Yueye (three with Baike entries). It's okay at least Du Fu only wrote one.

Baike gives several cites of other poems that use the fragrance of the hair as a ... trope? And it's the fragranced ointment applied to the hair that gives it scent of course.

OH Baike's gloss / vernacular TL make it clear that it's happy tears because they've thinking of being reunited and shedding happy tears looking at the moon together.
Date: 2021-10-03 07:49 pm (UTC)

Re: 5. 哀王孫 Āi wáng-sūn

douqi: (Default)
From: [personal profile] douqi
“a Han parallel is regularly employed by a T’ang poet when he wishes to speak of the T’ang sovereign or his family or affairs.” Who the fuck is alive and active enough to censor you?? - look this is a culture where the subjects are routinely expected to change their names once a new emperor comes to the throne if they have characters in their names that are similar or similar-sounding to the ones in the new emperor's name. So yeah.

The nominal founder of the T’ang dynasty was as a matter of fact also called Kao-tsu, but I don’t think he had a particularly famous nose - Hawkes is mistaken here. Kao-tsu (or Gaozu in contemporary pinyin) is not a personal name; it's a temple name often given to the founder of a dynasty, hence why there are so many 'Gaozus' in Chinese history.
Date: 2021-10-04 01:53 am (UTC)

Re: 5. 哀王孫 Āi wáng-sūn

superborb: (Default)
From: [personal profile] superborb
Baike notes:
Baike glosses wangsun (which Hawkes speaks of as if it's the /literal/ emperor's grandson) as just descendants of princes/aristocrats.

In contrast to Hawkes saying that Du Fu must have felt indignation that the nobles were left behind, Baike is also very convinced that Du Fu normally detests the luxurious lifestyle led by nobles (and by extension, the nobles), and the sympathy he feels for the prince here is a human sentiment in contrast to his normal opinions.
Date: 2021-10-07 07:02 pm (UTC)

Re: 5. 哀王孫 Āi wáng-sūn

douqi: (Default)
From: [personal profile] douqi
Du Fu is also the guy who wrote 'wine and meat rot behind vermilion gates; along the road lie the bones of the poor who have frozen to death'. So yeah.

There is also a cultural ideal of being the lone (or one of few) incorruptible officials in among the decadent nobility, which I can't help but feel would have shaped his self-image.

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