The Works of Li Qingzhao, Ci Poems 3.1 - 3.8

[x_los]

This week we start working with Li Qingzhao’s ci poetry. As usual, the book is freely available via De Gruyter's Library of Chinese Humanities in Mandarin and English and via several publication formats, including two open access options (the pdf appears to be better formatted than the ebook). We're reading the poems 3.1 through 3.8 inclusive.

This collection uses footnotes and endnotes to explicate the work. There are three endnotes for this week’s group of poems, but these aren’t very rich in exegesis.

CLP has an episode on Li Qingzhao you might find relevant.

Comments

Re: 3.6 咏白菊 On the White Chrysanthemum

[x_los]

Isn’t a briar rose sort of ‘low’ coded in European tradition?

Interesting to see associations for chrysanthemums that AREN’T queer.

“If a person truly cares for them,
why must one always think back to
Qu Yuan’s marsh and Tao Qian’s eastern hedge?” This seems like the clincher, and we have no further information.

Re: 3.6 咏白菊 On the White Chrysanthemum

[llonkrebboj]

WHERE are the associations for chrysanthemums that are queer? *side-eye emoji*

She really likes her flowers LOL! And her descriptions are always wonderfully vivid.

I think the Qu Yuan and Tao Qian mentions are because they both appreciate and like to write chrysanthemums into their poems? The last line of 'Qu Yuan’s marsh and Tao Qian’s eastern hedge' is a reference for the person (in Qu Yuan's case, because of the whole riverside/marsh bank conversation with the fisherman) and also to a poem (for Tao Yuan Ming).

I get why the translator would use Qu Yuan's marsh for 泽畔 when it really is just 'Riverside', and Tao Qian’s eastern hedge for 东篱 i.e. fence on the East side - because English readers just wouldn't have the context for the memes (unless they are familiar enough with Chinese poetry to catch the ball from the earlier name drop lmao).

Can't make heads or tails of what she's saying here though.
1) if you're doing well, there's no need to think of these people who dropped everything and left their vexing workplaces/situations?
2) just appreciate them for their beauty and don't think about wanting unhappy things?

Re: 3.6 咏白菊 On the White Chrysanthemum

[pengwern]

yeah I’m increasingly confused abt 人情好 - person.. something... good...
mood? feels for them? not needing to think back in wistful contemplation of these two bastions of nobleness in the past?

Re: 3.6 咏白菊 On the White Chrysanthemum

[pengwern]

generally chrysanthemums have the cluster of associations with autumn, chilliness, sorrow, dwindling, and yet the last burst of fragrance etc. and this poem is all on them...
the internet use of it is not as expansive as queer that I’ve seen? (maybe curved in opposition to straight) chrysanthemums now are more accurately the coarse part of anatomy ie “to have someone hankering after one’s chrysanthemum” (not particularly elegant nor pleasing)
Apparently it’s the Rubus rosifolius var. coronarius.

Re: 3.6 咏白菊 On the White Chrysanthemum

[douqi]

Pretty sure the main reason a very specific and limited part of the internet sees any queer coding in chrysanthemums is because of its use as an anatomical reference.

Otherwise yeah, those would be my usual associations with chrysanthemums, also hence why they're a traditional funeral flower.

Re: 3.6 咏白菊 On the White Chrysanthemum

[x_los]

Yeah, right now, you can't move on the danmei-adjacent internet for little translation operations called 'Chrysanthemum Garden', 'Bursting Chrysanthemums'(ew), etc. Just an emphasis on the anatomical reference that sort of mutes wider/older references in those contexts. It's interesting in itself if that association is of short duration, or not particularly powerful or coded outside of these specific contemporary spaces. (I wonder in a way if it's occupying some of the same space as 'green carnation' in Western queer aesthetic construction.)

Re: 3.6 咏白菊 On the White Chrysanthemum

[llonkrebboj]

oh huh! i did know about the whole anatomical reference thing. but it's just a slang that sees so little usage these days 🤣 at least i hardly ever see it in (jjwxc) novels anymore. very mid 2010s vibes!

mostly they remind me of that jay chou song, chrysanthemum terrace, funerals and also for some reason... new year?

Re: 3.6 咏白菊 On the White Chrysanthemum

[superborb]

The briar rose translation is a bit odd. Per Baike (since obviously the name has changed over time), it refers to Rubus rosifolius var. coronarius, a plant in the rose family that has white flowers in early summer. In the vernacular TL, it's used only to compare fragrance.