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dankodesI know this is a short week and that doing it on its own will not speed us through the Minor Odes, but given that the poems are longer in this section, Baihua's five felt too bulky to tack on to either side (to make one of those batches a kind of awkward 14-15 medium sized poems).
* I found the best option for the weekly reminder emails, via Gmail. The external service options are more involved than our purposes require. Does anyone know anything about how to arrange an Apps Script? Basically all it has to do is tell ten people, on Saturdays, to come and get their juice/poems.
Until someone knows what to do there, I'll send out manual messages weekly. If you'd like to receive these and are not getting them, please let me know.
* If you haven't read it yet, chapter one, on tetrasyllabic shi poetry, in How to Read Chinese Poetry is hugely useful for the Book of Odes, imo.
* IF YOU HAVE FRIENDS WHO MIGHT LIKE TO JOIN or have other ideas, please let me know on this post.
* Every week I search the poems' English results to see if I can find any scholarship or neat bits and pop the results in Resources. Here is this week's collection.
**NEXT BATCH APRIL 5.**
* I found the best option for the weekly reminder emails, via Gmail. The external service options are more involved than our purposes require. Does anyone know anything about how to arrange an Apps Script? Basically all it has to do is tell ten people, on Saturdays, to come and get their juice/poems.
Until someone knows what to do there, I'll send out manual messages weekly. If you'd like to receive these and are not getting them, please let me know.
* If you haven't read it yet, chapter one, on tetrasyllabic shi poetry, in How to Read Chinese Poetry is hugely useful for the Book of Odes, imo.
* IF YOU HAVE FRIENDS WHO MIGHT LIKE TO JOIN or have other ideas, please let me know on this post.
* Every week I search the poems' English results to see if I can find any scholarship or neat bits and pop the results in Resources. Here is this week's collection.
**NEXT BATCH APRIL 5.**
170. 魚麗 - Yu Li
君子有酒、旨且多。
The fish pass into the basket,
Yellow-jaws and sand-blowers.
Our host has spirits,
Good and abundance of them.
魚麗于罶、魴鱧。
君子有酒、多且旨。
The fish pass into the basket,
Bream and tench.
Our host has spirits,
Abundance of them and good.
魚麗于罶、鰋鯉。
君子有酒、旨且有。
The fish pass into the basket,
Mud-fish and carp.
Our host has spirits,
Good and in quantities.
物其多矣、維其嘉矣。
The viands are abundant,
And they are admirable.
物其旨矣、維其偕矣。
The viands are excellent,
Both from the land and the sea.
物其有矣、維其時矣。
The viands are in quantities,
And all in season.
Re: 170. 魚麗 - Yu Li
These more attributed, courtly poems have yet to hit some of the highs of the Lessons from the States, I feel. Are they Minor in THAT sense, or some other?
Re: 170. 魚麗 - Yu Li
But like, this just seems very one note, a fun song to sing at a party kind of deal?
Re: 170. 魚麗 - Yu Li
Because I can't help but feel that with the amazing weight and rhythm you get with tetrasyllabic poetry that a lot of them are going to end up being appreciated at the time for the way they sound, not quite like modern limericks but more like the 'relatable subject wittily put' kind of stuff that apparently I can't draw to mind apart from, like, thinking of various clever tumblr riffs because I'm a pleb.
I had to fucking google 'viands' but honestly it seems like the author just really liked food and good for them.
I was about to post and then I reread the bit about fish in a basket and remembered the Yijing (which I will never shut up about, apologies in advance), and also apparently 魚麗 (the poem title I mean) is usually translated "the fish enter the trap" because it's a battle formation.
In the Yijing gua 44 you have 姤, rendered in my favourite translation as "Encountering" [and the encounter is fraught, like, an enemy at court kind of deal], and because this is the Zhou dynasty here the main bit goes
姤
女壯
勿用取女
Encountering
A bold/strong woman
Do not marry her
but it makes sense because most of the rest of the gua is about the (inauspicious) wedding feast. The second line goes:
包有魚
无咎
不利賓
Fish in a bag
No fault
No advantage in receiving guests (Or, no advantage in giving the fish packet to guests, could be either)
ie keep your fish in your container, nothing good is gonna happen
and then the fourth line is
包无魚
起凶
No fish in the bag
Creates misfortune
ie you've let your fish out of the bag - basket? - and now everything's gone wrong.
[translations mine, and here you can really tell I'm not a translator lmao and I'm also riffing off my two preferred translations]
I dunno it just seemed resonant. That or it's a fun poem about feasting and drinking which, I mean, fair.
Re: 170. 魚麗 - Yu Li
Re: 170. 魚麗 - Yu Li
Re: 170. 魚麗 - Yu Li
Nevertheless I'm enthusiastically recommending Alfred Huang's translation and commentary: it's pretty Daoist in slant, which I enjoy bc the Confucian style commentaries/translations can get....prescriptive and Weird About Gender.
If Jin Yong, tho, sign me the fuck up.
Re: 170. 魚麗 - Yu Li
Re: 170. 魚麗 - Yu Li
I mean maybe they just read an edition with a ton of commentary. I ordered but have not yet received a translation with extensive historical commentary that was recced to me by an academic with an interest in this area and who reads old Chinese better than I do: it's Penguin's The Essential Translation of the Ancient Chinese Oracle and Book of Wisdom, translated by John Minford.
There's apparently a bronze age reconstruction section at the end, too, although it leaves out the ten wings which are to a lot of scholars pretty necessary. Anyway, I'm going to read that cover to cover, probably. I am really interested now you mention it to find out how it reads to people not reading it for divination, since in a lot of ways it is a set of like... Oracular determinations more than it is standalone poetry. This is more obvious in Chinese since a lot of English translations vary the wording for some reason.
Okay this is clearly a post all on its own which I ought to come back to, so.
Re: 170. 魚麗 - Yu Li
171. 南有嘉魚 - Nan You Jia Yu
君子有酒、嘉賓式燕以樂。
In the south is the barbel,
And, in multitudes, they are taken under baskets.
The host has spirits,
On which his admirable guests feast with him joyfully.
南有嘉魚、烝然汕汕。
君子有酒、嘉賓式燕以衎。
In the south is the barbel,
And, in multitudes, they are taken with wicker nets.
The host has spirits,
On which his admirable guests feast with him, delighted.
南有樛木、 甘瓠纍之。
君子有酒、嘉賓式燕綏之。
In the south are trees with curved drooping branches,
And the sweet gourds cling to them.
The host has spirits,
On which his admirable guests feast with him cheerfully.
翩翩者鵻、烝然來思。
君子有酒、嘉賓式燕又思。
The Filial doves keep flying about,
Coming in multitudes.
The host has spirits,
On which his admirable guests feast with him again and again.
Re: 171. 南有嘉魚 - Nan You Jia Yu
Those filial not actually doves are back
The juxtaposition of the birds being captured and the guests drinking is fairly threatening?
Re: 171. 南有嘉魚 - Nan You Jia Yu
Re: 171. 南有嘉魚 - Nan You Jia Yu
Re: 171. 南有嘉魚 - Nan You Jia Yu
Re: 171. 南有嘉魚 - Nan You Jia Yu
Can I do better? AbsoLUTELY NOT but I just have some Questions, like,
南有嘉魚、烝然罩罩。
君子有酒、嘉賓式燕以樂。
In the south is Jiayu*
Hundreds of fish in a trap
The host serves wine
Honoured guests accordingly feast and are happy
*this is a pun bc the name Jiayu contains the character 'fish'
And then the rest of the poem just describes....different ways of luring your guests into a trap? And then there's doves, which probably has different meaning in ancient China.
Baidu, it turns out, disagrees with me and thinks this poem is about having fun eating and drinking. If I'm right somehow, it'd be because this poem relies on a lot of double meanings, like 綏 which apparently can mean 'peace and happiness' but also 'MAKE peaceful'.
Re: 171. 南有嘉魚 - Nan You Jia Yu
Re: 171. 南有嘉魚 - Nan You Jia Yu
Baike also says the gourds clinging to the trees is a metaphor for the close relationship of family/friends reuniting. And the discussion of the doves may suggest that the guests are starting to discuss hunting after the banquet.
172. 南山有臺 - Nan Shan You Tai
樂只君子、邦家之基。
樂只君子、萬壽無期。
On the hills of the south is the tai plant,
On those of the north is the lai.
To be rejoiced in are ye, noble men,
The foundations of the State.
To be rejoiced in are ye, noble men; -
May your years be myriads and without end!
南山有桑、北山有楊。
樂只君子、邦家之光。
樂只君子、萬壽無疆。
On the hills of the south are the mulberry trees,
On those of the north are willows.
To be rejoiced in are ye, noble men,
The light of the State.
To be rejoiced in are ye, noble men; -
May your years be myriads, unlimited!
南山有杞、北山有李。
樂只君子、民之父母。
樂只君子、德音不已。
On the hills of the south are medlars;
On those of the north are plum trees.
To be rejoiced in are ye, noble men,
Parents of the people.
To be rejoiced in are ye, noble men; -
May your virtuous fame have no end!
南山有栲、北山有杻。
樂只君子、遐不眉壽。
樂只君子、德音是茂。
On the hills of the south is the Kao;
On those of the north is the Niu.
To be rejoiced in are ye, noble men,
Have ye not the eyebrows of longevity?
To be rejoiced in are ye, noble men; -
May your virtuous fame be abundant!
南山有枸、北山有楰。
樂只君子、遐不黃耇。
樂只君子、保艾爾後。
On the hills of the south is the gou;
On those of the north is the xu.
To be rejoiced in are ye, gentlemen; -
Will ye not have the grey hair and wrinkled face?
To be rejoiced in are ye, gentlemen; -
May ye preserve and maintain your posterity!
Re: 172. 南山有臺 - Nan Shan You Tai
Eyebrows of longevity?
So are they just like these trees and the river because they're abundant natural blessings?
Re: 172. 南山有臺 - Nan Shan You Tai
Re: 172. 南山有臺 - Nan Shan You Tai
Re: 172. 南山有臺 - Nan Shan You Tai
Re: 172. 南山有臺 - Nan Shan You Tai
The last four phrases of each stanza is singing the praises of and offering birthday congratulations. [The phrase used for 'singing the praises of' is usually derogatory, but I don't think that connotation is meant here??] The first two stanzas offer wishes to the nation, the third and fourth to the parents of the people [I think this metaphorically means the ruler -- i.e. a virtuous ruler will treat the common masses as their children, so the parent of the people therefore is a virtuous ruler?], and the last to the offspring/posterity.
So this is a banquet song for nobles, wishing guests longevity and good future generations.
The xing adds symbolic meaning (bi), color and subtlety. Otherwise it would be too abrupt and straightforward.
173. 蓼蕭 - Liao Xiao
既見君子、我心寫兮。
燕笑語兮、是以有譽處兮。
How long grows the southernwood,
With the dew lying on it so bright!
Now that I see my noble men,
My heart is entirely satisfied.
As we feast, we laugh and talk; -
It is right they should have fame and prosperity!
蓼彼蕭斯、零露瀼瀼。
既見君子、為龍為光。
其德不爽、壽考不忘。
How long grows the southernwood,
With the dew lying on it so abundantly!
Now that I see my noble men,
I appreciate their favour and their brightness.
Their virtue is without taint of error; -
May they live long, and not be forgotten!
蓼彼蕭斯、零露泥泥。
既見君子、孔燕豈弟。
宜兄宜弟、令德壽豈。
How high is the southernwood,
All wet with the fallen dew!
Now that I see my noble men,
Grandly we feast, delighted and complacent.
May their relations with their brothers be right!
May they be happy in their excellent virtue to old age!
蓼彼蕭斯、零露濃濃。
既見君子、鞗革沖沖。
和鸞雝雝、萬福攸同。
How high is the southernwood,
With the dew lying on it so richly!
I have seen my noble men,
With the ends of their reins hanging down,
With the bells tinkling on their cross-boards and bits.
May all happiness gather upon them.
Re: 173. 蓼蕭 - Liao Xiao
Re: 173. 蓼蕭 - Liao Xiao
[Shocked that Baike is highly informative for this metaphor lol]
Re: 173. 蓼蕭 - Liao Xiao
Re: 173. 蓼蕭 - Liao Xiao
Re: 173. 蓼蕭 - Liao Xiao
Re: 173. 蓼蕭 - Liao Xiao
The historical background is that this is a poem that feudal vassals used to praise the Zhou emperor in the early years of the Western Zhou dynasty when the country prospered. It's all very happy and praising the emperor [which I guess makes sense if this is intended to be presented to him?]
The southernwood (mugwort in the Baike gloss) is the feudal vassals/princes, the dew is the emperor's grace. The mugwort is also used for sacrificial offerings.
Baike also comments that this is an elegant poem in content and form. Since it was given to the emperor, it must be reserved and cautious. Compared to the healthy and vivacious folk poems that express true feelings, its artistic merits and feelings are lacking.
[
Re: 173. 蓼蕭 - Liao Xiao
174. 湛露 - Zhan Lu
厭厭夜飲、不醉無歸。
Heavy lies the dew;
Nothing but the sun can dry it.
Happily and long into the night we drink; -
Till all are drunk, there is no retiring.
湛湛露斯、在彼豐草。
厭厭夜飲、在宗載考。
Heavy lies the dew;
On that luxuriant grass.
Happily and long into the night we drink.
In the honoured apartment we complete our carousal.
湛湛露斯、在彼杞棘。
顯允君子、莫不令德。
Heavy lies the dew;
On those willows and jujube trees.
Distinguished and true are my noble guests, -
Every one of excellent virtue.
其桐其椅、其實離離。
豈弟君子、莫不令儀。
From the Tong and the Yi,
Their fruit hangs down.
Happy and self-possessed are my noble guests, -
Every one of them of excellent deportment.
Re: 174. 湛露 - Zhan Lu
Their fruit hangs down.'
what's this about?
Re: 174. 湛露 - Zhan Lu
Re: 174. 湛露 - Zhan Lu
There's also apparently a lot of controversy over if the princes/vassals in the banquet have the same surname or not.
The grasses and trees might be metaphors for bloodlines and relatives, but more likely for moral character. (Some of the terms are homonyms or sound similar to various virtues.) And again the dew is the favor of the king.