"Nirvana in Fire"/"Lang Ya Bang" Group Read: Discussion Post for Chapters 1-4

[x_los]

We're taking a break from poetry to read Lang Ya Bang/Nirvana in Fire. We did try this before, over a year ago, but now we're doing it in concert with a larger Discord of people. If that's your preferred book-club method, contact superborb for an invite.

I'll be on there, but also doing a weekly post with thoughts over here. Feel free to join in/discuss here if Dreamwidth is your preferred method.

If anyone is interested in dankodes running further poetry content during or after NiF, please let me know what you'd be keen to discuss. I'm happy to work with you on that. I'll probably ask this again once NiF draws to a close.

For the first week, we're discussing chapters 1-4 of Lang Ya Bang. This discussion will draw to a close, and the next session will open, on May 9th.

Chinese text: https://sj.uukanshu.com/book.aspx?id=17338
English translation: https://merelhyn.tumblr.com/post/641747965727358976/the-langya-list-epubpdf

SPOILER POLICY: I personally don't give a fuck or even like to give unearned credence to the concept, so since I'm writing the post, anything's fair game.

Comments

[halfcactus]

I'm still thinking about how loving and extended the descriptions were for Xie Yu's attractiveness. The author wanted to be extra extra sure we knew he was pretty in his youth and in his maturity. I'm coming from the POV of someone who watched the drama first. I had no sense of which characters were meant to be attractive in a show where the entire cast was attractive and there's little commentary on appearances, so this felt like a big (and somewhat funny) discovery to me. XD

I also found it interesting that the Chinese text is very straightforward and plain about the kind of bows/etiquette the characters are performing, and how much it felt revealing (or perhaps obscuring?) of their perceptions of each other's stations. (I don't think this is unique to Nirvana in Fire, it's just that it's my first time reading a cnovel that's not set in the modern day and it's been fascinating.)

[x_los]

Oh interesting, I'd have appreciated a tl footnote on that re: the bows bc it feels like a sizeable loss of context.

[halfcactus]

It was really just these two (with a disclaimer that I am neither a native speaker or familiar at all with Chinese etiquette):

1) 晚輩禮: a junior’s bow (to someone senior), which is how MCS greets Xie Yu, I think as a gesture of respect to someone older.

2) 半禮: literally half bow, I guess? When someone of notable rank acknowledges someone lower or younger than them. This how Xie Yu returns MCS’s bow.

Chapter 1

[x_los]

- really cinematic
- 'as if trying to erase the grandiose'?
- 'like smoke, like dust' feels like a quote, but it's not footnoted
- Li Cong's fate is such a strong Clue to the bad turn the regime has taken
- in a way, Revival of a Decaying Dynasty (rarely achieved, according to popular imaginaries of Chinese historiography) is the fantasy here
- I think the concept that sorrow could harm your body could do with a note of explication
- dude I think you do have to say what 'by the Emperor's brush' means bc the first time I watched NIF I was like, so the Emperor was--up on a scaffold? A shrimp fried this rice?
- "paying respects to Buddha today" what exactly this is and why it would necessitate her resting at the Manor afterwards confuse me
- what's Demonic Sect in this situation?
- interesting that posh people would decamp to temples--are they set up to receive such stays? I guess!
- D stresses that 'went to battle with the demonic sect' is formal duelling rather than warfare

And this is what I noted on my previous read:

- First off, do you think they call their fic challenge Langya Big Bang? Because if not, truly a wasted opportunity.
- Is Changsu's tutor's death a change from the show canon, or are these different men? I didn't think about it at the time, but the absence of major Confucian scholars from the court is probably a tacit rebuke of the Emperor, isn't it?
- Was it the execution of beloved scholarly Lin Shu and the crown prince that cemented their dissatisfaction, or some other great idea of World's Meh-est Dad's?
- Compared to some of the rough rides out there, this initial translator is fucking gold
- It's interesting that copies of the emperor's calligraphy/handwriting are referred to as his calligraphy: he did not come out here and paint this house. Struggling to think of another visual art where we'd say that of a lay reproduction?
- Jingrui is the product of a poly quartet idk why we're being shy about this let the people know the truth. Their moms play go together, and if Hikaru No Go has taught me anything--

Re: Chapter 1

[superborb]

I think Liyang is just taking the change to visit her (natal?) family?

I am not sure 'demonic' is the connotation we're supposed to get.

Re: Chapter 1

[llonkrebboj]

This 'demonic' is not the same as that 'demonic' even though they are the same word (魔). NIF has a wuxia background, so in this case, it's probably safe to assume that they are an unorthodox sect (implied: comprised of evildoers who tend to commit immoral deeds).

Re: Chapter 1

[superborb]

Yes, I remember the mzds debates over the correct translation of that word lol.

Re: Chapter 1

[dragonyphoenix]

Li Cong's fate is such a strong Clue to the bad turn the regime has taken Yes, I thought that too. And I like your point of how a lack of Confucian scholars at court is a rebuke. I hadn't thought of it, but yes.

"paying respects to Buddha today" what exactly this is and why it would necessitate her resting at the Manor afterwards confuse me. I'm not sure what it is but I think it's meant as a character reference. She pays proper respect to the gods. It tells us she's a good person. But that's a guess. And I'd say that the temple was far away but why wouldn't there be a temple in a big city?

I think it's the same Confucian scholar in both the book and the drama. When prince Mu Qing goes to fetch the scholar, isn't he asked, in the drama, if his surname is Li?

Re: Chapter 1

[x_los]

- Re Mu Qing going to fetch the scholar, in the drama he can do so, and in ch 1 of the book here, we learn the man's died in ignominy.
- Yeah I think there has to be something about--a temple the royal family has access to inside the imperial city proper, or something, and maybe? Protocol around the relatively simple journey makes her staying overnight in her discrete manor there make sense.

Re: Chapter 1

[dragonyphoenix]

The scholar who died is Li Cong. I believe the scholar that Mu Qing fetches is someone else. The scholar who comes to the debate admired Li Cong and must have been a close friend as he recognizes Li Cong's token which is what draws him out of seclusion.

I like your thinking on the temple and protocols. I can definitely see that being the reason she has to stay at her palace after visiting the temple.

Re: Chapter 1

[xmarksthespotwhereistand]

The emperor's handwriting, i adore that.
There is this paper, that i will go and find later, that talks about the emperor's official handwriting and the empress using it in Song dynasty.
As far as i could tell, it wasn't everything handwritten by the emperor that counted as official word of emperor, but anything written in his handwriting. And even then, there were specific people who could use it? The empress, selected officials, i assume, there were woodcarvers from the palace here.
(In this case then, i would say it's not that every reproduction is the real thing but that no reproductions are allowed besides the official ones. Or that, it's not a reproduction of the emperor's hand, just the "font" for official documents.)

Chapter 2

[x_los]

- GOD 'Jing' everyone was confusing for me the first time I watched NiF
- P audacious of the Emperor to give the kid an entire name
- technically, by real identity and blood, should Changsu be a person of higher status? The Emperor's sister took a formal demotion, and he's the Emperor's nephew. So is Jingrui, but Changsu is older.
- I wonder if historical dramas give undue time to codex books vs scrolls, simply bc we're still comfortable with the codex today?
- 'donned in' feels like English tourists on holiday saying things loud and slow, with a Spanish accent. Older/formal English as an awkward second language: one cannot be 'donned in part-worn, casual robes'. Clad in, maybe. 'To don' is exclusively the action of putting on, not a descriptor or resting state of wearing.
- Jingrui is from a G&S plot.
- Idk how to feel about Feiliu's position as mentally handicapped in a vague way. I'm a bit uneasy with it, though not sure of any particular quality of the depiction that makes me so. Maybe it's just that it's not handled quite according to frameworks of good or poor representation I'm used to, and it's such a hotly politicised thing, so I'm not sure how to read it and can't reconcile it neatly into categories I'm sure of.
- YUJIN! AYYYYYY.

And last time, I said:

- Here in chapter 2 the emperor made a decent judgment of Solomon (is that a familiar enough coordinate this writer would know it?). Don't get comfortable, he will never make a good decision again.
- Reading this after watching the series has the weird effect of making you feel LIKE Changsu. You know the Marquess of Ning is fucking awful before everyone else in the room, it's v weird.
- YUJIN, MY FAVOURITE SON! Well, one of. I used to just call him Tigger before I properly learned his name.
- was Xie Bi this central in the first ep of NiF? If so, I don't remember it. Duchess Mu apparently pushed to the fore at this juncture for the tv version only.
- how did people KNOW this novel was where it was AT? the opening gives very few fucks about your interest level. We've just spent 2 chapters... having some congee, which Fei Liu did not like.

Re: Chapter 2

[superborb]

'Don' is such an inexplicably common translationese choice.

I think we may be led to think of the emperor as having been good before the paranoia got him. Maybe it's a remnant of that time.

This /is/ revised without the multi-chapter ADVENTURES IN THE JIANGHU--

Re: Chapter 2

[x_los]

Yeah I wonder if the novel's aborted first beginning still preceded this version in popular memory, shaping people's reception and the audience engagement.

That's true re: time and the Emperor. 'Is this him back when he's still on the ball?'

Re: Chapter 2

[halfcactus]

was Xie Bi this central in the first ep of NiF? If so, I don't remember it.
I was also wondering this! I don’t remember him part of the banter (and his interactions with Yujin feel pointed somehow).

LOL It really is a very slow set of chapters but I guess if it was released a few chapters at a time (since it was a webnovel?), this type of short but slow beginning is not a dealbreaker?

Re: Chapter 2

[x_los]

Yeah, true re pacing, but in that hot-house competitive 'by the word' atmosphere I would almost expect the beginning to come out SWINGING, knowing it had an audience to win fast.

Re: Chapter 2

[xmarksthespotwhereistand]

Fei Liu's portrayal is just something i can't roll with it in any of these adaptations. Like, what's the excuse for having him like this?
His portrayal is just the worse out of all the characters.

Chapter 3

[x_los]

- Xie Bi is a bit weak-willed or squirrely, afraid of rocking the boat, but then he *does* bear more political and administrative responsibility than Jingrui.
- Yujin is quite perceptive to sense that and forceful in calling him on it.
- Yujin's NHS energy.
- "Hehe," grinned Yan Yujin--this is so awkward in English, be a little freer in your tl lads
- Nihuang's being a 'princess' is still a little weird, in English. We kind of accept Russians being 'princes' and not blood children of the reigning monarch (or a generation up, same), but there's not quite a concept of that in re Chinese literary translation, so it's confusing.

And last time I said:

- 'Yan Yujin was the eldest son of the Royal Uncle, the Empress’s nephew' Oh for real, not her brother anymore? (Wait maybe they just mean *Yujin* is her nephew. That could be clearer--typical slash pronoun confusion. I think when people move cnovels into English, the relative paucity of pronouns often results in this.)
- Yujin needs to stop calling Mei Changsu just 'Su' I have spent too long learning never to abbreviate a Chinese name to anything 1 syllable to let him give me bad habits
- “who we saw outside the little town where we met Su?” [...] “Ah, those envoys sent by the Yu empire to Liang! Weren’t they throwing a fit in the restaurant saying how they lost their letter of credence? They were smashing things and searching people."

CHANGSU.
- you stole their letter for your fake contestant to use while you picked up your hapless cousins?? Mei Changsu's Busy Day over here
- 'Yan Yujin glared at Mei Changsu in resentment. He said bitterly, “Su, even though your intelligence is really something to be admired, this bad habit of correctly guessing everything is really tiresome. It makes people feel very unfulfilled!”' yujin, bb, you have no fucking idea
- '“Sorry, I will reflect on it. I won’t be like this anymore,” chuckled Mei Changsu.'

b i t c h

Re: Chapter 3

[superborb]

Yeah, they mean Yujin is the Empress's nephew. Confusing.

WOULD prefer more 'said' please.

Chapter 4

[x_los]

- Couldn't Nihuang be a second-wife to an already married man, simply supplanting a first wife she already ranked higher than?
- Would Nihuang *work* militarily for her new country, or simply be a liability/likely spy?
- Kind of weird they didn't hear the competition chattered about on the road, if common people know to come for it. Perhaps Changsu distracted them somehow, for some reason.
- Why does Yujin say Feiliu feels like a block of ice, is he--touching him, for some reason? That's not stated.

Last time, I said:

- “I think so too,” said Yan Yujin smugly. “You all know that the Princess has always liked me best…”

yujin, no one alive ships this. i don't even think you really ship this? like the MOST i could see is one wild hook up, Nihuang just raises an eyebrow&you promise to never tell
- 'Mei Changsu looked at Yan Yujin with great interest and asked, “How are you certain that someone gave them this idea?”'

Changsu never thought stage 18/57,000 of his Plan was so obvious that even *Yujin* could see it, but then the last time he saw Yujin, he HAD been teething--
- 'Mei Changsu laughed in spite of himself. “I’m not a fortune-teller. How could I know?”'

fuck you Changsu
- Changsu is like oh yeah guys i straight up robbed those envoys and everyone's like oh fair fair they were Foreign so--
- '“Oh, you don’t need to worry about it, I’ve already signed him up.” Yan Yujin grinned impishly.

“Oy… You two…”'

and so the fifth great cdrama jewish wank arose, when the precise nature of yujin's 'oy' was called into question-- (I bet that was an 'aiyoh')(No, apparently it's a 'wei')

Re: Chapter 4

[superborb]

I think this is in the tradition of 'only the emperor gets multiple concubines and everyone else is ahistorically monogamous unless we need convenient concubines'.

I think block of ice like 'icy demeanor'.

YYJ is so much more immediately obviously socially adept here.

Re: Chapter 4

[halfcactus]

+1 I also think FL being icy pertains to his demeanor and inexpressiveness. Him laying his head on MCS’s lap is supposed to be, I suppose, some kind of moe gap?? Iirc MCS describes it as a sajiao moment, clearly he thinks FL id adorable, but no one else is convinced. XD

He’s definitely characterized differently here, not as pouty as drama!FL.

Re: Chapter 4

[x_los]

Which is odd bc in my head, at least at the moment, he's still extremely drama!FL. It's going to take me a bit to stop back-reading the drama characters over this version thereof. x_x

Re: Chapter 4

[x_los]

Though at least in the drama, Jingyan has a concubine at the moment and later acquires a wife as crown prince. And I think there's some discussion of Prince Yu's wanting Banruo as a concubine.

'Feels' is what gets me, maybe.

Yeah we do see, much earlier or just easier, YYJ's facility with these situations.

Re: Chapter 4

[douqi]

Nihuang is far too high-ranking to be anything but a first wife, unlike Banruo and Jingyan's nameless concubine. 'Supplanting a first wife' gets into LOTS of politics because any woman high-ranking enough to be principal wife to any man high-ranking enough to marry Nihuang is not going to take that lying down.

Re: Chapter 4

[x_los]

Tho this competition is also, nominally, a crapshoot in which many commoners who'd presumably have no-name wives are competing (the likelihood of a commoner actually MAKING it through the lit portion of the exam--)

Re: Chapter 4

[xmarksthespotwhereistand]

Maybe it's also that the definition of unmarried would include people who have concubines but no main wife?
Because imagining someone with a wife proposing to Lord Nihuang sounds like it could get only messy, as you said. Bad times for everyone involved.
(Imagining Wei Zheng, Just Married entering the tournament and then stage whispering to Nihuang: don't worry, we won't let the young general's family get married to these morons, as a differently amusing thought.)