Shi Jing, The Book of Odes: Lessons from the States, Odes Of Wei II

[x_los]

* I know the two titular Weis are confusing; I believe they're different characters both rendered thus in Pinyin.

* I found the best option for the weekly reminder emails, via Gmail. The external service options are more involved than our purposes require. Does anyone know anything about how to arrange an Apps Script? Basically all it has to do is tell ten people, on Saturdays, to come and get their juice/poems. 

* If you haven't read it yet, chapter one, on tetrasyllabic shi poetry, in How to Read Chinese Poetry is hugely useful for the Book of Odes, imo.

* IF YOU HAVE FRIENDS WHO MIGHT LIKE TO JOIN or have other ideas, please let me know on this post.

* Every week I search the poems' English results to see if I can find any scholarship or neat bits and pop the results in Resources. Here is this week's collection.

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108. 汾沮洳 - Fen Ju Ru

[x_los]

彼汾沮洳、言采其莫。
彼其之子、美無度。
美無度、殊異乎公路。

There in the oozy grounds of the Fen,
They gather the sorrel.
That officer,
Is elegant beyond measure.
He is elegant beyond measure.
But, perhaps, he is not what the superintendent of the ruler's carriages ought to be.

彼汾一方、言采其桑。
彼其之子、美如英。
美如英、殊異乎公行。

There along the side of the Fen,
They gather the mulberry leaves.
That officer,
Is elegant as a flower.
He is elegant as a flower;
But, perhaps, he is not what the marshaller of the carriages ought to be.

彼汾一曲、言采其藚。
彼其之子、美如玉。
美如玉、殊異乎公族。

There along the bend of the Fen,
They gather the ox-lips.
That officer,
Is elegant as a gem.
He is elegant as a gem;
But, perhaps, he is not what the superintendent of the ruler's relations should be.

Re: 108. 汾沮洳 - Fen Ju Ru

[x_los]

oozy, eh

Is the agricultural work unconnected, or merely connected to the situation via simile, or is it what he's supposed to be supervising?

This poem reminds me of this bit from Henry IV, part 1:

HOTSPUR
My liege, I did deny no prisoners.
But I remember, when the fight was done,
When I was dry with rage and extreme toil,
Breathless and faint, leaning upon my sword,
Came there a certain lord, neat, and trimly dress'd,
Fresh as a bridegroom; and his chin new reap'd
Show'd like a stubble-land at harvest-home;
He was perfumed like a milliner;
And 'twixt his finger and his thumb he held
A pouncet-box, which ever and anon
He gave his nose and took't away again;
Who therewith angry, when it next came there,
Took it in snuff; and still he smiled and talk'd,
And as the soldiers bore dead bodies by,
He call'd them untaught knaves, unmannerly,
To bring a slovenly unhandsome corse
Betwixt the wind and his nobility.
With many holiday and lady terms
He question'd me; amongst the rest, demanded
My prisoners in your majesty's behalf.
I then, all smarting with my wounds being cold,
To be so pester'd with a popinjay,
Out of my grief and my impatience,
Answer'd neglectingly I know not what,
He should or he should not; for he made me mad
To see him shine so brisk and smell so sweet
And talk so like a waiting-gentlewoman
Of guns and drums and wounds,--God save the mark!--
And telling me the sovereign'st thing on earth
Was parmaceti for an inward bruise;
And that it was great pity, so it was,
This villanous salt-petre should be digg'd
Out of the bowels of the harmless earth,
Which many a good tall fellow had destroy'd
So cowardly; and but for these vile guns,
He would himself have been a soldier.
This bald unjointed chat of his, my lord,
I answer'd indirectly, as I said;
And I beseech you, let not his report
Come current for an accusation
Betwixt my love and your high majesty.

Re: 108. 汾沮洳 - Fen Ju Ru

[llonkrebboj]

i quite gave up trying to figure out a proper name for the officials' ranks xD mr. legge's translation spells the details out very obviously already, so i just plucked them out and plonked them in mine HAHAH. anyway so so so here's my take on 《汾沮洳》~squishy wet banks of river fen~

彼汾沮洳，言采其莫。
Bǐ fén jù rù, yán cǎi qí mò.
That person by the muddy Fen River then plucked the bristle docks.
彼其之子，美无度。
Bǐ qí zhīzǐ, měi wúdù.
"That man is beautiful beyond measure -
美无度，殊异乎公路。
Měi wúdù, shū yìhū gōnglù.
beautiful beyond measure, outstandingly different from the superintendent of the ruler's carriage."

彼汾一方，言采其桑。
Bǐ fén yīfāng, yán cǎi qí sāng.
That person on the other bank of the Fen River then plucked the mulberry leaves.
彼其之子，美如英。
Bǐ qí zhīzǐ, měi rú yīng.
"That man is as beautiful as a flower -
美如英，殊异乎公行。
Měi rú yīng, shū yìhū gōng xíng.
beautiful as a flower, outstandingly different from the marshal of the carriages."

彼汾一曲，言采其藚。
Bǐ fén yī qū, yán cǎi qí xù.
That person at another bend of the Fen River then plucked the ox-lips.
彼其之子，美如玉。
Bǐ qí zhīzǐ, měi rú yù.
"That man as beautiful as jade -
美如玉，殊异乎公族。
Měi rú yù, shū yìhū gōng zú
beautiful as jade, outstandingly different from the ranks of nobility."

i took a whack at 《 陟岵》 first before this one bc i liked the subject there a little more (also bc it's shorter lol), but they've both got that whole 'progression of time and intensity' vibe going on. in this case i suppose it's the speaker's interest and attraction to the dude they're talking about.

okies so! let's start off by clarifying: 'that person' 彼 (gender unspecified) at SOME position relative to the fen river 汾 across the first line of the three parts, is a DIFFERENT one for sure from 'the other person' 彼其 (gender specified to be male 之子) in the second lines. i guess the first person is implied to be female just by the things they're doing i.e. picking wild plants, mulberry leaves and herbs, and will be referred to as 'she' from now on. she lives nearby i suppose, and he has stuff to do in the area.

the first time she catches sight of him, she is totally blown away. she's never seen someone so beautiful!!!! and too busy being awed, to her his beauty was without measure. the second time she sees him, she's clearly had time to think about it and he's as beautiful as a flower! blooming flowers in their prime; the world is more beautiful for their presence.

the third time she sees him, oh, this is interesting. she thinks he's as beautiful as jade! jade which is associated with good moral character, virtue, a certain inborn nobility of nature.
just as a point of interest as digging the rabbit hole led me to another shijing entry (pls take with a pinch of salt as i have not read it in its entirety lol):
言念君子 温其如玉
the gentleman whom i long for is as gentle, as warm as jade
- from 秦风·小戎 odes of qin, xiao rong
and he is better looking than those officials and nobility AND a man of good moral character, unlike them. high praise, young lady, high praise indeed.

i do wonder what IS the selection criteria for 'superintendent of the ruler's carriage' and 'marshal of the carriages'. is appearance one of the considerations for her to compare them? or are they just the most important official that she has seen?

Re: 108. 汾沮洳 - Fen Ju Ru

[superborb]

Legge's choice to translate the last line of the poem as vaguely negative when Baike's gloss is that it's meant to be something like "outstandingly standing out" is certainly a Choice

Re: 108. 汾沮洳 - Fen Ju Ru

[llonkrebboj]

to be fair, i feel in THAT at least he isn't like, wrong. it's a possible alternate reading bc 殊 can mean different, distinguish, VERY, outstanding and ummmm death. so like, 殊异乎XX could be '/very/ different from xx'. what i get from his translation is that this dude is so handsome that one might think he's too good looking for his like official's position. "like ah, such a pretty person fits right in where the scenery is wonderful, picking nice smelling herbs and flowers (LOL)... oh he works for the emperor? how unexpected..."