x_los: (Default)
x_los ([personal profile] x_los) wrote in [community profile] dankodes2020-10-26 10:54 am

Shi Jing, The Book of Odes: Lessons from the states, Odes Of Bei

This is a longer chapter than the previous two, and people are still catching up with the last two chapters/acclimating to the format. Thus we'll only do one chapter this week.

I'm going to post this week's poem translations in the body of the discussion to make commenting a bit easier. 

Get your 'odes of bae' jokes out early, before the rush.
superborb: (Default)

Re: 26. 柏舟 - Bo Zhou

[personal profile] superborb 2020-10-31 08:41 pm (UTC)(link)
I like this new poem-in-comment format! Thanks!

This poem is very sad...

Baidu says:
The lines "My mind is not a stone; -
It cannot be rolled about.
My mind is not a mat; -
It cannot be rolled up." are v famous and often quoted
And there is controversy over if the author is a minister or a woman -- seems like a lot of people think this was written by a woman though
Sun/moon often refers to husband/wife relationships in this collection

Re: 26. 柏舟 - Bo Zhou

[personal profile] aeriallon - 2020-11-23 19:25 (UTC) - Expand

Re: 26. 柏舟 - Bo Zhou

[personal profile] between4walls 2020-11-22 09:21 pm (UTC)(link)
This character "如" comes up a lot in poetry, it means "as if" or "like" implying comparison. I notice that the radicals it includes are "woman" and "mouth." This amuses me, thought I may be interpreting it wrong.

Re: 26. 柏舟 - Bo Zhou

[personal profile] superborb - 2020-11-24 14:24 (UTC) - Expand
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Re: 27. 綠衣 - Lu Yi

[personal profile] superborb 2020-11-01 05:58 pm (UTC)(link)
I did not realize on first read that 古人 / Legge's tl to ancients refers to the dead wife that the man is mourning. So from baidu, this is a poem written in autumn when the man went to get winter clothes out (bc he wasn't used to having to do that himself) and saw all the clothing that his wife had carefully sewn for him.

:( sad
forestofglory: E. H. Shepard drawing of Christopher Robin reading a book to Pooh (Default)

Re: 27. 綠衣 - Lu Yi

[personal profile] forestofglory 2020-11-19 04:51 pm (UTC)(link)
My brain: ooo, textiles!

I wonder what they used for green dye. Also this poem mentions both silk and linen. Where both commonly used? Nither seems great for winter clothing.

Re: 27. 綠衣 - Lu Yi

[personal profile] aeriallon 2020-11-23 07:34 pm (UTC)(link)
Lu Yi 🤝 Sappho
superborb: (Default)

Re: 28. 燕燕 - Yan Yan

[personal profile] superborb 2020-11-01 10:23 pm (UTC)(link)
Why are all these poems sad ones qq

Baidu says: 仲 (which Legge translates to the name Zhong) refers to someone who is the 2nd son or daughter, so I question this translation lol. There are a couple theories on who wrote it -- baidu says there is consensus but then lists alternatives.

Re: 28. 燕燕 - Yan Yan

[personal profile] forestofglory - 2020-11-19 16:53 (UTC) - Expand

Re: 28. 燕燕 - Yan Yan

[personal profile] superborb - 2020-11-24 14:48 (UTC) - Expand

Re: 29. 日月 - Ri Yue

[personal profile] between4walls 2020-11-22 09:24 pm (UTC)(link)
I wonder if the title "Sun Moon" refers to marriage as described by uminohikari in another comment; that would imply this is coming from a woman persona who wishes this guy would make up his mind about marrying her?

Re: 29. 日月 - Ri Yue

[personal profile] superborb - 2020-11-24 02:24 (UTC) - Expand

Re: 30. 終風 - Zhong Feng

[personal profile] superborb - 2020-11-08 19:28 (UTC) - Expand

Re: 30. 終風 - Zhong Feng

[personal profile] aeriallon - 2020-11-23 19:08 (UTC) - Expand

Re: 30. 終風 - Zhong Feng

[personal profile] superborb - 2020-11-24 02:28 (UTC) - Expand

Re: 30. 終風 - Zhong Feng

[personal profile] aeriallon - 2020-11-25 16:39 (UTC) - Expand

Re: 30. 終風 - Zhong Feng

[personal profile] superborb - 2020-11-25 16:58 (UTC) - Expand

Re: 30. 終風 - Zhong Feng

[personal profile] aeriallon - 2020-11-25 17:11 (UTC) - Expand

Re: 30. 終風 - Zhong Feng

[personal profile] aeriallon - 2020-11-23 19:12 (UTC) - Expand

Re: 30. 終風 - Zhong Feng

[personal profile] aeriallon - 2020-11-23 19:13 (UTC) - Expand
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Re: 31. 擊鼓 - Ji Gu

[personal profile] superborb 2020-11-08 07:41 pm (UTC)(link)
The importance of the horse is that if it is lost, it is hard to escape the battlefield.

Baidu also says something about how the fourth stanza, which as written is an AABB rhyme scheme, used to be in ABBA. Also Legge's translation adds some random wives, pretty sure they're supposed to be sons? The Baidu vernacular translation makes it so that the narrator is holding whoever the poem is addressed to's hand.

Re: 31. 擊鼓 - Ji Gu

[personal profile] forestofglory - 2020-11-19 23:57 (UTC) - Expand

Re: 31. 擊鼓 - Ji Gu

[personal profile] forestofglory - 2020-11-25 17:49 (UTC) - Expand

Re: 31. 擊鼓 - Ji Gu

[personal profile] superborb - 2020-11-24 14:08 (UTC) - Expand

Re: 31. 擊鼓 - Ji Gu

[personal profile] forestofglory - 2020-11-25 17:51 (UTC) - Expand
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Re: 32. 凱風 - Kai Feng

[personal profile] superborb 2020-11-08 09:54 pm (UTC)(link)
Baidu says the "heart" in the first stanza indicates tiny thorns; also the word 棘 which indicates jujube trees now has a dictionary definition of thorn, which is interesting word drift, and was very confusing to me on first read ^^;

Baidu also notes that the title of this poem is also often used as shorthand for filial piety now.

Re: 32. 凱風 - Kai Feng

[personal profile] superborb - 2020-11-24 14:57 (UTC) - Expand

Re: 33. 雄雉 - Xiong Zhi

[personal profile] superborb - 2020-11-24 15:03 (UTC) - Expand

Re: 34. 匏有苦葉 - Pao You Ku Ye

[personal profile] aeriallon 2020-11-23 07:10 pm (UTC)(link)
I like how tragic this week's collection is. It Speaks to me. And I'm totally stealing some of these for my creative writing program AU.

Re: 35. 谷風 - Gu Feng

[personal profile] aeriallon - 2020-11-23 19:37 (UTC) - Expand

Re: 36. 式微 - Shi Wei

[personal profile] aeriallon 2020-11-23 07:38 pm (UTC)(link)
GT gives "reduced" as "declining" which at least makes it sound less like it's about produce. These/this one seems mostly to be about a Feeling, which, respect.

Re: 36. 式微 - Shi Wei

[personal profile] superborb - 2020-11-24 15:25 (UTC) - Expand
forestofglory: E. H. Shepard drawing of Christopher Robin reading a book to Pooh (Default)

Re: 37. 旄丘 - Mao Qiu

[personal profile] forestofglory 2020-11-20 12:56 am (UTC)(link)
I'm once again noticing the textiles. (If first are even textiles) Anyone know more about what's with the foxfurs here? Do they have some spefic sybomic meaning?

Re: 37. 旄丘 - Mao Qiu

[personal profile] aeriallon - 2020-11-23 19:44 (UTC) - Expand

Re: 37. 旄丘 - Mao Qiu

[personal profile] forestofglory - 2020-11-23 23:37 (UTC) - Expand

Re: 37. 旄丘 - Mao Qiu

[personal profile] aeriallon - 2020-11-23 23:39 (UTC) - Expand

Re: 37. 旄丘 - Mao Qiu

[personal profile] superborb - 2020-11-24 15:31 (UTC) - Expand

Re: 37. 旄丘 - Mao Qiu

[personal profile] forestofglory - 2020-11-25 18:04 (UTC) - Expand

Re: 37. 旄丘 - Mao Qiu

[personal profile] aeriallon - 2020-11-23 19:42 (UTC) - Expand

Re: 37. 旄丘 - Mao Qiu

[personal profile] superborb - 2020-11-24 15:30 (UTC) - Expand

Re: 38. 簡兮 - Jian Xi

[personal profile] aeriallon 2020-11-23 07:45 pm (UTC)(link)
with my large figure I also dance...who are these fine men of the west?

Re: 38. 簡兮 - Jian Xi

[personal profile] superborb - 2020-11-24 15:40 (UTC) - Expand

Re: 39. 泉水 - Quan Shui

[personal profile] aeriallon 2020-11-23 08:12 pm (UTC)(link)
So many place names!

When a young lady goes [to be married],
She leaves her parents and brothers;
[But] I would ask for my aunts,
And then for my elder sister.

I have nothing to say about this I just really liked it a lot. Ruth/Naomi, Canticles, Sappho, et alia.

Re: 40. 北門 - Bei Men

[personal profile] aeriallon 2020-11-23 08:05 pm (UTC)(link)
The king's business comes on me,
And the affairs of our government in increasing measure.

the real real

Re: 43. 新臺 - Xin Tai

[personal profile] superborb - 2020-11-24 15:53 (UTC) - Expand

Re: 44. 二子乘舟 - Er Zi Cheng Zhou

[personal profile] between4walls 2020-11-22 09:00 pm (UTC)(link)
I like this one, it's quite short but very evocative. I'm having trouble with a lot of these older odes but I'm enjoying the anthology of Tang and Song poets I have. I think the older poems depend so much on being sung, but Bei does convey more meaning that some of the poems we've looked at.

Anyway I'm reading Red Pine (pen name of translator Bill Porter) 's Poems of the Masters (Tang and Song poems) and really enjoying it. I don't have as much to say about these poems.