Shi Jing, The Book of Odes: Lessons from the states, Odes Of Bei

[x_los]

This is a longer chapter than the previous two, and people are still catching up with the last two chapters/acclimating to the format. Thus we'll only do one chapter this week.

I'm going to post this week's poem translations in the body of the discussion to make commenting a bit easier. 

Get your 'odes of bae' jokes out early, before the rush.

Comments

Re: 30. 終風 - Zhong Feng

[superborb]

All of these angsty poems by neglected wives >:(

Re: 31. 擊鼓 - Ji Gu

[superborb]

The importance of the horse is that if it is lost, it is hard to escape the battlefield.

Baidu also says something about how the fourth stanza, which as written is an AABB rhyme scheme, used to be in ABBA. Also Legge's translation adds some random wives, pretty sure they're supposed to be sons? The Baidu vernacular translation makes it so that the narrator is holding whoever the poem is addressed to's hand.

Re: 32. 凱風 - Kai Feng

[superborb]

Baidu says the "heart" in the first stanza indicates tiny thorns; also the word 棘 which indicates jujube trees now has a dictionary definition of thorn, which is interesting word drift, and was very confusing to me on first read ^^;

Baidu also notes that the title of this poem is also often used as shorthand for filial piety now.

Re: 27. 綠衣 - Lu Yi

[forestofglory]

My brain: ooo, textiles!

I wonder what they used for green dye. Also this poem mentions both silk and linen. Where both commonly used? Nither seems great for winter clothing.

Re: 28. 燕燕 - Yan Yan

[forestofglory]

I'm finding your notes on this super helpful!

Re: 30. 終風 - Zhong Feng

[forestofglory]

These translations feel pretty different to me? I see how the are saying the same thing, but as a linguistically challenged person translation seems so complex and magical

Re: 31. 擊鼓 - Ji Gu

[forestofglory]

Did we have some historical context for this one? There's a lot of names and my history is very franmentory.

Re: 37. 旄丘 - Mao Qiu

[forestofglory]

I'm once again noticing the textiles. (If first are even textiles) Anyone know more about what's with the foxfurs here? Do they have some spefic sybomic meaning?

Re: 44. 二子乘舟 - Er Zi Cheng Zhou

[between4walls]

I like this one, it's quite short but very evocative. I'm having trouble with a lot of these older odes but I'm enjoying the anthology of Tang and Song poets I have. I think the older poems depend so much on being sung, but Bei does convey more meaning that some of the poems we've looked at.

Anyway I'm reading Red Pine (pen name of translator Bill Porter) 's Poems of the Masters (Tang and Song poems) and really enjoying it. I don't have as much to say about these poems.

Re: 26. 柏舟 - Bo Zhou

[between4walls]

This character "如" comes up a lot in poetry, it means "as if" or "like" implying comparison. I notice that the radicals it includes are "woman" and "mouth." This amuses me, thought I may be interpreting it wrong.

Re: 29. 日月 - Ri Yue

[between4walls]

I wonder if the title "Sun Moon" refers to marriage as described by uminohikari in another comment; that would imply this is coming from a woman persona who wishes this guy would make up his mind about marrying her?

Re: 30. 終風 - Zhong Feng

[aeriallon]

Am I losing it, or does this have the equivalent of an eye rhyme, at the end of the lines?

終風且曀、不日有曀。
寤言不寐、願言則嚏。

...for cloudy and gasp?

GT gives this horrifying translation, which tells me I am years away from being able to read these poems in the original:

The wind will end and will soon be awkward.
Talking is insomnia, willing to talk is sneezing.

Re: 34. 匏有苦葉 - Pao You Ku Ye

[aeriallon]

I like how tragic this week's collection is. It Speaks to me. And I'm totally stealing some of these for my creative writing program AU.

Re: 30. 終風 - Zhong Feng

[aeriallon]

Okay so here is my Colossally Stupid Question: what is with the repetition/variation. In the first week we'd have 3 stanzas repeated/varying, and now we have 4. But like...why. What is that about? Is it like in Western popular music, when you repeat the chorus but change a few words to make it more poignant? What about this form would have made its audience swoon? It's really fascinating to me. Sorry for being a ninnyhammer, I'm just a very simple poet.

Re: 30. 終風 - Zhong Feng

[aeriallon]

(You just could never get away! with doing this! in an Anglophone contemporary poem!)

Re: 26. 柏舟 - Bo Zhou

[aeriallon]

I like this iteration of all the things the mind is not 不 ...which reminds me of the Heart Sutra, which I'm sure isn't relevant at all...

Re: 27. 綠衣 - Lu Yi

[aeriallon]

Lu Yi 🤝 Sappho

Re: 35. 谷風 - Gu Feng

[aeriallon]

"Zip, zip" Arthur Waley, no, wyd bb

Re: 36. 式微 - Shi Wei

[aeriallon]

GT gives "reduced" as "declining" which at least makes it sound less like it's about produce. These/this one seems mostly to be about a Feeling, which, respect.

Re: 37. 旄丘 - Mao Qiu

[aeriallon]

omg it's dolichos again, and every time i still misread it as "doritos"

Re: 37. 旄丘 - Mao Qiu

[aeriallon]

My dumb poetry take is that they're elegant and fancy but here have become worn/tired, as if something was once great and noble but has now fallen in stature. Like the regard of the uncles for the speaker/s? But who are the uncles? Why aren't they showing up? I really don't get this one.

Re: 38. 簡兮 - Jian Xi

[aeriallon]

with my large figure I also dance...who are these fine men of the west?

Re: 44. 二子乘舟 - Er Zi Cheng Zhou

[aeriallon]

I met Red Pine one year at an AWP, he's a lovely guy and those versions are legit gorgeous, that is all—

Re: 44. 二子乘舟 - Er Zi Cheng Zhou

[aeriallon]

Well if this isn't about Lotus Pier—

Re: 40. 北門 - Bei Men

[aeriallon]

The king's business comes on me,
And the affairs of our government in increasing measure.

the real real