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[personal profile] x_los posting in [community profile] dankodes
Welcome to Minor Odes of the Kingdom!

* I found the best option for the weekly reminder emails, via Gmail. The external service options are more involved than our purposes require. Does anyone know anything about how to arrange an 
Apps Script? Basically all it has to do is tell ten people, on Saturdays, to come and get their juice/poems.

Until someone knows what to do there, I'll send out manual messages weekly. If you'd like to receive these and are not getting them, please let me know.

* If you haven't read it yet, chapter one, on tetrasyllabic shi poetry, in 
How to Read Chinese Poetry is hugely useful for the Book of Odes, imo.

* IF YOU HAVE FRIENDS WHO MIGHT LIKE TO JOIN or have other ideas, please let me know on 
this post.

* Every week I search the poems' English results to see if I can find any scholarship or neat bits and pop the results in Resources. Here is this week's 
collection.

* In case you missed it and are interested, some people on the com are doing a Nirvana in Fire read-along 
here. Anyone with thoughts is welcome to chime in. 

**NEXT BATCH MARCH 29.**
Date: 2021-03-27 09:18 pm (UTC)

Re: 161. 鹿鳴 - Lu Ming

superborb: (Default)
From: [personal profile] superborb
Baike:

'celery': Artemisia rotundifolia, green leaves, stems like chopsticks and crisp, fragrant and can be eaten raw. Later, Baike's vernacular translation has this as mugwort
'southernwood': celery wormwood
'salsola': a plant similar to celery wormwood. MDBG says Phragmites japonica

'The organ is blown till its tongues are all moving.': the tongue is the reed of this instrument. It's a "free reed wind instrument with vertical bamboo pipes" (from MDBG)

Baike says the theme is hotly debated, but does not really specify the debate? Instead it's a lot of words about how pleasant and cheerful it is
Date: 2021-03-27 09:13 pm (UTC)

Re: 162. 四牡 - Si Mu

From: [personal profile] ann712
He’s not even performing any business he truly values ( he’s leaving Zhou!). Bloody Kings!
Date: 2021-03-27 10:19 pm (UTC)

Re: 162. 四牡 - Si Mu

superborb: (Default)
From: [personal profile] superborb
Yeah, Baike glosses it as: a type of short tailed bird. Also called bojiu, fubu. Ancients thought it was a filial bird

Baike says this is a 行役 poem, which relates to serving in the army, forced labor, or official business causing the narrator to wander away from home. The whole poem uses the 'fu' technique.

Baike is also pretty authoritatively saying this is a poem expressing discontent with the ruler, and it is a misinterpretation to say it is about how they couldn't satisfy their loyalty to the ruler and filial piety simultaneously. So rulers would use the poem to show appreciation for the hardships of the workers. Baike proceeds to say all the famous interpretations that turn the 'complain' aspect of the poem into 'beauty' are incorrect.
Date: 2021-03-27 09:15 pm (UTC)

Re: 163. 皇皇者華 - Huang Huang Zhe Hua

From: [personal profile] ann712
Not half! We’d be out in the streets cheering the appearance of those fabulous horses with their glossy reins!
Date: 2021-03-27 10:34 pm (UTC)

Re: 163. 皇皇者華 - Huang Huang Zhe Hua

superborb: (Default)
From: [personal profile] superborb
Baike is very light about this poem for some reason? No famous interpretations or anything. Maybe it's too straightforward?
Date: 2021-03-27 09:33 pm (UTC)

Re: 164. 常棣 - Chang Di

From: [personal profile] ann712
I’m reading it that cherry trees have flashy blossom and nice fruit but these are not necessarily accessible when you need them. This is paired with friends feasting - very enjoyable but occasional not permanent.. the wagtail also represents jovial friendship. Wives and children well they’re okay. But it’s brothers, good old brothers who are there for the good times and the bad. ( I’m beginning to understand Jiang Chang’s beef with Wei Wuxian)
Date: 2021-03-27 10:55 pm (UTC)

Re: 164. 常棣 - Chang Di

superborb: (Default)
From: [personal profile] superborb
Baike:

'There is the wagtail on the level height': Wagtails are water birds, so being in the plain is dangerous, a metaphor for the danger the brothers are in.

The Mao commentary says it is written by Zhou Cheng wang, whose brothers rebelled. But other sources have different suggestions, e.g. Zhou gong or Shao Mu gong, since [a bunch of idioms that figuratively mean brothers?] had conflict during this time.

Baike also says this is a song meant to be sung during a banquet, so despite stanza 5 adding a layer [of sadness?], it is mostly cheerful
Date: 2021-03-27 09:40 pm (UTC)

Re: 165. 伐木 - Fa Mu

From: [personal profile] ann712
"The loss of kindly feeling among people,
May arise from faults in the matter of dry provisions." not getting this bit in relation to the stanza

I’m getting

Do I or do I not strain my spirits so we have an abundance of alcohol? Yes I do! And THAT’S why there’s no loss of kindly feeling I’m the shebangs I organised for them after they felled the trees. ( a kind of harvest celebration?)
Date: 2021-03-28 10:30 pm (UTC)

Re: 165. 伐木 - Fa Mu

superborb: (Default)
From: [personal profile] superborb
Baike says it was written by Zhao Mu gong (https://baike.baidu.com/item/%E5%8F%AC%E7%A9%86%E5%85%AC/2384065?fromtitle=%E5%8F%AC%E4%BC%AF%E8%99%8E&fromid=7098205). The background is under Zhou Li wang the people rebelled, and there was disharmony in the royal family. Eventually Zhou Xuan wang succeeded the throne, and this poem was written to try and stabilize people's hearts.
Date: 2021-03-27 09:48 pm (UTC)

Re: 166. 天保 - Tian Bao

From: [personal profile] ann712
It reads to me like those Victorian Hymns or religious homilies that urge individual piety while suggesting that even pagan savages recognise the power of ‘the one true God’ they are being urged to worship.
Date: 2021-03-28 10:39 pm (UTC)

Re: 166. 天保 - Tian Bao

superborb: (Default)
From: [personal profile] superborb
Possibly bc the it's addressing the new king, the pronoun choice is a more respectful one.

'Black-haired race, in all their surnames': Baike simply glosses the first two characters as the masses, the working people, and the second pair as the aristocracy, the 100 surnames of the officials. I think Legge gets black haired from the second character, which is a literary word to mean black, but also means multitude.
Date: 2021-03-28 10:34 pm (UTC)

Re: 166. 天保 - Tian Bao

superborb: (Default)
From: [personal profile] superborb
Baike: written by the same guy as 165, Zhao Bohu, to express his encouragement and expectation of the new king Zhou Xuan wang.
Date: 2021-03-27 09:52 pm (UTC)

Re: 167. 采薇 - Cai Wei

From: [personal profile] ann712
Reminds me of Wilfred Owen’s Exposure. “But nothing happens”
Date: 2021-03-27 09:53 pm (UTC)

Re: 167. 采薇 - Cai Wei

From: [personal profile] ann712
Even more similar to Exposure in tone and content.
Date: 2021-03-23 05:13 pm (UTC)

Re: 167. 采薇 - Cai Wei

douqi: (Default)
From: [personal profile] douqi
I will try and think of something intelligent to say later but I'm currently wallowing in nostalgia over the various pretentious pen/usernames I constructed out of the last verse during my secondary school days.
Date: 2021-03-28 10:45 pm (UTC)

Re: 167. 采薇 - Cai Wei

superborb: (Default)
From: [personal profile] superborb
Baike says there are three kings this could be under: Zhou Wen wang, Zhou Yi wang, Zhou Xuan wang.

The thorn-ferns are basically edible weeds, gathered to satisfy their hunger.
Date: 2021-03-23 05:18 pm (UTC)

Re: 168. 出車 - Chu Che

douqi: (Default)
From: [personal profile] douqi
First two lines of the fourth verse parallel the first two lines of the last verse from the previous poem, somewhat in structure and also in sense (昔我往矣、黍稷方華。今我來思、雨雪載塗。vs 昔我往矣、楊柳依依。今我來思、雨雪霏霏。)
Date: 2021-03-28 10:51 pm (UTC)

Re: 168. 出車 - Chu Che

superborb: (Default)
From: [personal profile] superborb
I suppose it's really difficult to capture the repetition of words in an English translation -- a lot of characters are repeated here, which makes it sound pleasing when spoken.

Baike says this is passionately praising commander in chief Nan Zhong's victory over the Xianyun during the early years of Zhou Xuan gong's reign.
Date: 2021-03-28 11:07 pm (UTC)

Re: 169. 杕杜 - Di Du

superborb: (Default)
From: [personal profile] superborb
Baike: this poem mostly uses fu (last two stanzas) and xing (first two phrases of the first two stanzas) techniques.

The second stanza implies that a year has passed, as the tree is now luxuriant again. This is the same technique used in the line 昔我往矣,杨柳依依 in 167.

Apparently it's a source of debate if the poem, or if specific sections of the poem, are from a male or female POV. Mao's commentary has the entire POV as the male soldier thinking about a woman. However, certain stanzas are more straightforward from either the male or female POV.

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